LED recessed downlights - retro fitting

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#1822060 13-Jul-2017 17:23

solar panel and an oscilloscope is how a couple of youtuber guys check for it. I tried that but I only have a pretty lousy USB scope which never shows me much of anything.

Richard rich.ms

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#1822067 13-Jul-2017 17:37

richms:

tdgeek:

Ok, Ive read the pamphlets. Its focussed on LED, which are 90% less power, last 30-50 times longer than incandescent, and saves up to 75% on your heating cost. This is under the heading LED Downlights. How can they save 75% on heating costs? Do they emit heat? And a good amount?

Not an open hole to the cieling like most incandesent downlights are. Some have a good 12-14mm gap around the lamp. One I had even had part of the lamp above the reflector so that it lit the cieling space up when on. Swapped out for sealed LEDs and killed the draught coming into the room.

I can go in to my ceiling at night and don't need a torch with the light provided by my incandescent down lights. Replacing them is next project, then another layer of batts is the next

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#1822074 13-Jul-2017 18:01

richms:

solar panel and an oscilloscope is how a couple of youtuber guys check for it. I tried that but I only have a pretty lousy USB scope which never shows me much of anything.

I actually managed to get a chart reading using a "physics toolbox" app on a phone - using the front camera sensor. I've no idea what the readout sample frequency is - probably not fast enough to get any reasonable idea of waveform - so reasonably useless. Could see very clearly flicker on the same LEDs that showed flicker using the camera screen method. Some minor (a few lux) also with all LEDs and a halogen lamp. The halogen lamp also showed quite a lot of lower frequency variation, significantly dimming and brightening (by about 10%) over a period of seconds - I didn't expect to see that.

spronkey

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#1825828 20-Jul-2017 12:25

I recommend Switch E-Lightz or Visionary EVE G3. I recommend Kiwi's K005U dimmer in leading edge mode for both.

The E-Lightz with SL302D driver + K005U will dim to zero smoothly and without flicker. I've tested this with 4 and 6 units on the dimmer. This is what I use in my living areas, with the Kiwi dimmer's minimum brightness set so the lamp is *just* on. This is dark room suitable for movies dim, and I haven't been able to get any of the cheaper units I've tried (Rexel, DETA, Saturn, LEDLux, Lons) stable at this level of brightness.

There is a lot of crap on the market. Stay away from basically everything Bunnings sell - it's either poor quality, or outdated. Most of those Philips downlights are also a bit outdated in terms of their efficiency, and are more expensive than the two above. The halo ring feature is cool and I wish more would consider something similar as dimming is such a clusterf..., but they are expensive for what they are.

Things to look out for:

NZ or AU-designed drivers. Both Switch and Visionary have drivers designed in NZ that are designed to work with our phase cutting dimmers.
L70 lifetime. This is different to the 'LED lifetime', and is the lifetime until 70% of its original output. Some LED manufacturers will quote a high LED lifetime but not state an L70 measure. That 25k might be to 50% brightness or even less! Both of the above have 50k hours+ until 70% brightness
Actual dimmer compatibility. I wouldn't buy a lamp and dimmer combo without it being tested by the manufacturer as stable and smooth. Some will just test to see if it works. Good products will have a dimmer compatibility table including min brightness, max brightness, stability and smoothness for each supported dimmer.
Driver coverability. Still a good idea to put driver above insulation, but drivers that can be covered will run cooler and last longer than those that can't.
Clearance ratings. Both the lights above have zero clearance to structural elements i.e. wood. I've seen some other downlights needing 50mm side clearance, which can be a problem for placement.
Wide beam angles. 90deg is a bit small if you're planning on replacing i.e. a bedroom with one light. You really want >100.
IP ratings. Not really any good reason to buy a lamp that isn't at least IP44 IMO, considering they are cheap enough.

The Switch E-Lightz feel nice too. And they look visually nicer than cheaper units - a more pearly white lens instead of a dull frosted grey, thinner edges with gentle slopes instead of obvious ridges. The Eve are also good in this respect.

For cheaper units, I've been looking at Eurotech's products. Can't give a solid recommendation on them yet.

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#1825859 20-Jul-2017 13:05

Not quite on track - but got some GU10 LED downlights to replace some 50w halogens (thanks Bunnings - sorry spronkey).

Worked out <$13 for the fitting and bulb. The bulbs are 5.5w 3000k 420lm 60 degree.

Can't see any flickering and they are pretty close to the halogens for brightness - maybe a touch whiter - but not much.

Pretty happy with them.

I guess the one obvious thing when buying fittings that are sealed - like some of the ones mentioned on this thread, is to buy one or two spares. Its not like the old days when you could replace a bulb and no one will notice. Its pretty much guaranteed the fittings you bought wont be available after a very short time and while the LEDs are 'supposed' to last a very long time you dont want to replace all of your lights because just one has died prematurely.

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#1825902 20-Jul-2017 14:18

Having popped one of my spares into the middle of the hallway between 2 others to sort out the hallway being too dim after a few years, I have found the spare is signifigtantly brighter than the others in the hall which is probably why the hall was OK initially but later on I decided was too dim. So a spare doesnt really help you out if one fails.

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#1825908 20-Jul-2017 14:23

robjg63:

Not quite on track - but got some GU10 LED downlights to replace some 50w halogens (thanks Bunnings - sorry spronkey).

Worked out <$13 for the fitting and bulb. The bulbs are 5.5w 3000k 420lm 60 degree.

Can't see any flickering and they are pretty close to the halogens for brightness - maybe a touch whiter - but not much.

Pretty happy with them.

I guess the one obvious thing when buying fittings that are sealed - like some of the ones mentioned on this thread, is to buy one or two spares. Its not like the old days when you could replace a bulb and no one will notice. Its pretty much guaranteed the fittings you bought wont be available after a very short time and while the LEDs are 'supposed' to last a very long time you dont want to replace all of your lights because just one has died prematurely.

Are the they arlec ones?

I replaced my 50W halogens with 500lm Philips, which they had on special for $5 each , half price. They run off the exisiting transformers. However I have just had one fail which isn't good and will have to return to the retailer. I thought Philips were supposed to be the best brand for LEDs

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#1825929 20-Jul-2017 14:53

Yes - they were Arlecs

http://www.arlec.com.au/detail-2/?de=ALD023

Bunnings have them listed as https://www.bunnings.co.nz/arlec-5w-brushed-chrome-led-gu10-downlight_p00285777

While both sites list them as 5w 380 lumens they packaging now says 5.5w and 470 lumens - which is halogen territory.

I like the fact they:

1) Dont need a transformer (being GU10s)

2) Can just replace the bulb if required (Dont need new fittings)

I couldnt see any Arlec replacement bulbs at Bunnings - I could have looked harder) - but these look pretty similar:

https://www.bunnings.co.nz/luce-bella-5-5w-500lm-gu10-led-globe-4-pack_p00317653

I have replaced transformers before with the old 12v halogens. They were apparently heavy duty ones but seemed to start expiring at around 10 years old.

Nothing is impossible for the man who doesn't have to do it himself - A. H. Weiler

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#1826044 20-Jul-2017 17:31

robjg63:

Yes - they were Arlecs

http://www.arlec.com.au/detail-2/?de=ALD023

Bunnings have them listed as https://www.bunnings.co.nz/arlec-5w-brushed-chrome-led-gu10-downlight_p00285777

While both sites list them as 5w 380 lumens they packaging now says 5.5w and 470 lumens - which is halogen territory.

I like the fact they:

1) Dont need a transformer (being GU10s)

2) Can just replace the bulb if required (Dont need new fittings)

I couldnt see any Arlec replacement bulbs at Bunnings - I could have looked harder) - but these look pretty similar:

https://www.bunnings.co.nz/luce-bella-5-5w-500lm-gu10-led-globe-4-pack_p00317653

I have replaced transformers before with the old 12v halogens. They were apparently heavy duty ones but seemed to start expiring at around 10 years old.

I looked into this exact product about a year ago as an option, for exactly the same reasons. My reason though for going with the philips bulbs were they were on special at the time, so less than half the price. Plus I wouldn't need to do all the replacement work, where my exisiting ones have heat cans around them which insulation buts up to. But it is certainly a very good option. The only issue is how reliable GU10s are and availability in the future. It seems the MR16 LED builbs on the transformer lights are more common, although the pin connectors can be temperamental. I might have to buy some new drivers for mine. Anyone know a good quality affordable transformer for running 5W leds?

CutCutCut

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#1836417 3-Aug-2017 11:34

timmmay:

I've used Lons from Lighting Plus, dimming has never worked properly with the proper driver and about six different dimmers. I would want to see one in action for a good while before I replaced them all. I'm probably going to take out the dimmable driver and dimmer and run them at 100%.

Note, threads can be re-opened easily. Also, retrofitting is different from a "retro fitting".

After hearing and reading about how hard it is to get good dimming with some of these LEDs I just ended up skipping the dimmer and running all my Lons at 100%. I'd bought dimmable drivers for 3 of the 5 lights but according to Lighting Plus and my electrician it's fine to run them without the dimmer which makes sense. I'm pretty happy with their light output, we have the 10 watt 3000k model, seems comparable to the 75 watt ones we were running there previously. The 5 seem pretty consistent in terms of colour, I haven't noticed any flickering, and I'm pretty happy with the coverage they provide.

jonathan18

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#1862181 11-Sep-2017 10:45

So I'm looking at replacing the lounge/dining room downlights with LED units. I've read through the recent threads on the topic, which has been really useful.

One thing I'm still not sure on, however, is the appropriate power to get, given the 'standard' units seem to commonly range from nine to 13 watts.

I think there are seven downlights for the room space (say 5x9m, 2.4m ceiling, light-ish walls); these currently have CFCs in them (standard coil versions) that are a mix of 75w or 100w (equivalent). I'm concerned, given that most LED replacement units don't have replaceable bulbs, that I need to get the level of light correct at the point of initial purchase of the units - and getting it wrong means replacing them, not just a bulb! As the CFCs aren't really designed for downlights. it's also hard to know what the impact of shifting to a bulb that's designed to display downwards will also have...

How do I work out which are the right powered units to get? I'd hate to go too low and end up with a dingy space, but equally I'm not keen on it being overly bright.

Also, apart from the additional work of needing to connect an external driver to the unit, are there any significant differences between units with external or built-in drivers? There's the 'don't place the driver on insulation' thing I've read of here, but that shouldn't be an issue in my case given the lights are inserted in a false ceiling, whereas the insulation is in the one above it.

Thanks for any advice.

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#1862483 11-Sep-2017 18:38

Inbuilt drivers do not need to be isolated, as it becomes a sealed appliance with a plug coming out of it. Seperate drivers need to be a SELV power supply, which means isolated between the mains and the output terminals to some standard I cannot recall. Basically made certain that the output will be safe to touch since they use thin little wires and non finger proof connectors between the driver and the LED itself. That also means no electrical isolation needed on the actual downlight needed.

The issue with the isolated power supplies over a cheaper buck driver is that they cost more, and there are more losses in them, so the whole thing is cheaper to make with everything in a single unit and will in theory give a better efficiency than separate ones.

Richard rich.ms

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#1863295 13-Sep-2017 09:37

richms:

Inbuilt drivers do not need to be isolated, as it becomes a sealed appliance with a plug coming out of it. Seperate drivers need to be a SELV power supply, which means isolated between the mains and the output terminals to some standard I cannot recall. Basically made certain that the output will be safe to touch since they use thin little wires and non finger proof connectors between the driver and the LED itself. That also means no electrical isolation needed on the actual downlight needed.

The issue with the isolated power supplies over a cheaper buck driver is that they cost more, and there are more losses in them, so the whole thing is cheaper to make with everything in a single unit and will in theory give a better efficiency than separate ones.

Thanks for the explanation, richms - most useful.

I see Mitre 10 is now selling a Philips 10w (600 lumens) downlight for only $20, which seems damn cheap - anyone got experience with these or have any thoughts? https://www.mitre10.co.nz/shop/philips-led-downlight-smartbright-warm-white-10w/p/296156

Also, any advice on what wattage would be appropriate for a room of about 5x9 with seven lights? I'm planning on trialling one of these Philips units as a first step, but it would be useful to have an idea whether 7 x 10w will be ok.

Thanks.

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#1870465 21-Sep-2017 19:32

Had a read of this thread while trying to plan out replacing our old halogen fittings with ICF rated LEDs.

Currently we've already got 4W GU10 LEDs in most rooms, with 6 in the living room and 2-4 in the bedrooms.

I don't want to go any brighter and really don't want to muck around with dimmers.

Thus far I've only been able to find people willing to quote for 10-12W, which would effectively necessitate a dimmer in every room if they're as much brighter as I think they would be based on the wattage.

Is my only other option plugging up half the holes and going for 10-12W?

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#1870472 21-Sep-2017 20:03

jonathan18:
richms:

Inbuilt drivers do not need to be isolated, as it becomes a sealed appliance with a plug coming out of it. Seperate drivers need to be a SELV power supply, which means isolated between the mains and the output terminals to some standard I cannot recall. Basically made certain that the output will be safe to touch since they use thin little wires and non finger proof connectors between the driver and the LED itself. That also means no electrical isolation needed on the actual downlight needed.

The issue with the isolated power supplies over a cheaper buck driver is that they cost more, and there are more losses in them, so the whole thing is cheaper to make with everything in a single unit and will in theory give a better efficiency than separate ones.

Thanks for the explanation, richms - most useful.

I see Mitre 10 is now selling a Philips 10w (600 lumens) downlight for only $20, which seems damn cheap - anyone got experience with these or have any thoughts? https://www.mitre10.co.nz/shop/philips-led-downlight-smartbright-warm-white-10w/p/296156

Also, any advice on what wattage would be appropriate for a room of about 5x9 with seven lights? I'm planning on trialling one of these Philips units as a first step, but it would be useful to have an idea whether 7 x 10w will be ok.

Thanks.

60lm/W seems quite a low efficiency. Most of the lights I have been looking at are 75-85lm/W. I have been told as a rough rule of thumb that you multiply the existing incandescent wattage by 10. For instance, one of our rooms has a 5x40W pendant in the centre of the room, which requires (roughly) four 600lm LEDs (rounding up) to replace it.

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