Advice on home heating and/or ventilation

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#2514940 30-Jun-2020 10:46

Blurtie:

No, not the 3M window film kits - but it's the same idea/concept. It's a piece of plastic that's about 1 cm thick that's the size of each glass pane. Recently found out that it's attached using magnetic tape so i can actually them off - but the previous owners screwed in the window latches/hardware through it! It doesn't look very nice- which is what I meant by 'cheap', not actually sure how cheap it is..

Those 3M films seem like a good idea, but the year I tried them I had to repaint all the window frames as they didn't come off well. They also sag daily and need maintenance. Really not worth the bother.

I then put in the 3mm thick plastic frames which were "magnetically attached", but in practice screwed in otherwise they slip off the larger windows over time. They work well, but ugly.

I then put in proper double glazing. Works great, looks best, but acoustically louder than the second option. With PVC double glazing the window glass unit sits on spacers so that any water can run out, so all that's keeping noise out of the room around the edges of the glass is two thin pieces of PVC. With the old retrofit we had inch thick wooden frames. So it's warmer, less drafts, looks better, but we get more outside noise.

Blurtie

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#2515124 30-Jun-2020 14:38

timmmay:

Those 3M films seem like a good idea, but the year I tried them I had to repaint all the window frames as they didn't come off well. They also sag daily and need maintenance. Really not worth the bother.

I then put in the 3mm thick plastic frames which were "magnetically attached", but in practice screwed in otherwise they slip off the larger windows over time. They work well, but ugly.

I then put in proper double glazing. Works great, looks best, but acoustically louder than the second option. With PVC double glazing the window glass unit sits on spacers so that any water can run out, so all that's keeping noise out of the room around the edges of the glass is two thin pieces of PVC. With the old retrofit we had inch thick wooden frames. So it's warmer, less drafts, looks better, but we get more outside noise.

Looks like I'm on the same sort of trajectory in terms up upgrading to DG. I've got the 3M film, but haven't actually put them on our single glazed windows yet.. your negative experience has put me off, so thanks for highlight that.

So will just skip straight to proper double glazing! Just need to find the funds for it now!

mdf

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#2515162 30-Jun-2020 15:39

There are lots of previous posts about the differences between positive pressure and balanced ventilation systems. @freitasm may have greater insights (I can't see it on the analytics page), but I strongly suspect posts including the words "heating" or "ventilation" spike in about June each year 🙂.

Back to ventilation, and heat circulation, there are different options. All have their use cases and can work well in the right situation, but its important to understand how they work and what they're intended to do. House "comfort" really should be treated as a system rather than a "if I use this particular solution that will fix the problems". Even opening windows at the right time of day and in the right combination can have massive impacts, as can clever use of fans, vents, heat sources, thermostats and timers.

Energywise has some really good introductory information.

antonknee

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#2515164 30-Jun-2020 15:40

Yeah I've tried the 3M kits... good in a pinch and it did make a difference to condensation, but not fun to put on and not attractive to look and as mentioned require maintenance.

Can't say I've seen the plastic panels, but sounds like they're not worth the hassle either.

Blurtie

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#2515630 1-Jul-2020 12:45

antonknee:

Yeah I've tried the 3M kits... good in a pinch and it did make a difference to condensation, but not fun to put on and not attractive to look and as mentioned require maintenance.

Can't say I've seen the plastic panels, but sounds like they're not worth the hassle either.

Without knowing how effective the 3M kits are, I would say the plastic panels work pretty well and obviously a lot better than not having anything there. But as I mentioned previously, they are fugly. I imagine you could try and DIY it for quite cheap on a window or two to see how you go.. Then again, I wouldn't know where you would get the plastic panel from to start with..

timmmay

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#2515654 1-Jul-2020 13:52

The 3mm thick permanently installed plastic panels work as well as proper double glazing, they're just ugly and they're difficult to clean around the edges. But at about $4K for that or $15K for proper double glazing plus potentially more for painting they're much cheaper.

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Blurtie

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#2515664 1-Jul-2020 14:25

wow. 4k? That's much more than I thought it would cost.... I mean, it's just a piece of plastic cut to size and magnetically stuck on. Am I missing something?

But i guess based on your actual real world experience of having all three - film, plastic and actual DG, the plastic insert is cheap in comparison to actual DG, especially considering that it works just as well.. But i'm still surprised by the cost!

timmmay

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#2515706 1-Jul-2020 15:18

Blurtie:

wow. 4k? That's much more than I thought it would cost.... I mean, it's just a piece of plastic cut to size and magnetically stuck on. Am I missing something?

But i guess based on your actual real world experience of having all three - film, plastic and actual DG, the plastic insert is cheap in comparison to actual DG, especially considering that it works just as well.. But i'm still surprised by the cost!

I think it cost me $3K but that was over a decade ago.

A quick check shows bunnings has it at about $80 / square meter at retail. maybe more for sheets that are long on one side. My windows are something like 4 square meters, and I have seven of them plus smaller ones, which when you multiply it out comes to $2880 just for the plastic. Add in the nice edging, the magnetic bits, the labour to quote, to measure, to cut, and to install, you can see where the cost comes from.

AklBen

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#2515761 1-Jul-2020 17:12

Right, thanks everyone for your replies. Here's a quick n dirty floorplan of our place. It's a 4 bedroom that fits into around 130m2, so it's not a massive space, meaning we don't need to go overboard with the solution.

What I've mapped out below are the following options:

- Heat transfer system to support the fireplace ~$1k PLUS, either:
- A floor/recessed wall unit in the hall way near the rear of the house ~$2-3k (yellow unit in image below) OR;
- A small ducted system that vents into 3/4 locations (lounge, kitchen, or either the master bedroom or the hall at the rear of the house) ~$5-7k (blue dots)

What I've not mapped is a larger ducted system with around 6 vents, that's more like the ~$13-16k solution.

What I'd like outside of heat being provided by the fireplace and its heat transfer system (yet to be installed) is a heat pump that takes the chill off most of the house in the mornings or if we're not lighting the fire for some reason to provide some heat that supports bedrooms.

What I'm keen to get your thoughts on is:

- Is having a floor/wall recessed heatpump in the hallway spot a bad location? I've placed it there to support the bedrooms and provide a wider level of heat across the house instead of just being in the lounge/kitchen area before a fire was lit
- Would a small, more discreet ducted system work better than just one heat pump?
- Knowing that we would use the fire and the heat transfer, would having a small or large ducted system in the house be overkill? (considering it's Auckland and it's only really "cold" for a short period of the year)
- We'd be happy to use column heaters in the rooms when the house cools down too, don't see us having a ducted system running 24/7
- Our house has space underneath, and considering the advantages of floor vents, do floor based ducted systems cost more than ceiling ones? (why?)

Thanks!

timmmay

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#2515874 1-Jul-2020 18:56

A floor heat pump in that location looks to be firing directly into one bedroom. I don't think it's a great location. One bedroom will be super warm, the rest will get a bit of heat. If you really want to heat multiple rooms ducted will work a lot better. Bedrooms really don't need much heat if the house is warmed during the day using heat pumps, we run a 1000W oil heater in each bedroom and it spends more time off than one, so I guess in an well insulated house you need about 500W per bedroom. Lounges and larger spaces with more windows need more heat - we have from memory 9kw heat in the lounge and 7kw in the kitchen.

I personally wouldn't like to have to light a fire every time I want a room warm. Plus fires contribute to bad air quality for the whole neighborhood, I'd like to see all fires banned in cities.

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#2515935 1-Jul-2020 23:10

timmmay:

I personally wouldn't like to have to light a fire every time I want a room warm. Plus fires contribute to bad air quality for the whole neighborhood, I'd like to see all fires banned in cities.

I agree on air pollution and also the hassle of lighting a fire, cutting kindling and stacking wood etc. When it's a heat pump/gas heater then press a button and away you go.

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alasta

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#2515976 2-Jul-2020 08:40

Woodburners shouldn't produce smoke when used correctly. Smoking is likely to be the result of damp firewood, or a dull fire due to poor oxygen circulation. I happily leave my washing on the line with the woodburner going and I've never noticed any bad smell.

Having said that I agree that they're a massive nuisance to get going, along with the hassle of maintaining stocks of firewood, kindling, firestarters, and matches. I only use mine in extreme cold conditions.

AklBen

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#2515982 2-Jul-2020 09:02

I really enjoy the ambience of the fireplace and actually enjoy the ritual of lighting it and preparing the wood etc., while certainly less convenient to me it's more enjoyable than just pressing a button.

That being said, I'm still keen on getting a heat-pump solution as mentioned above :)

mdf

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#2516000 2-Jul-2020 09:44

At least some (most?) ducted heat pump systems have a return to create a balanced pressure system. If you design this right, you can use this to create decent airflow and heat transfer around the house. The orthodox approach is to have the vents on the extremities of the house and the return somewhere central.

We've got a gas fired central heating system using this approach and generally it works well. We have a mix of floor and ceiling vents and I prefer the floor vents but personal preference there. I would guess there as some benefits as heat rises?

But...

Separate airflow pathways (like those in a heat transfer system) may "short circuit" balanced pressure systems. You don't want heat transferred in to a room to be sucked straight back out again through a return vent without heating anything. On the other hand, separate airflow pathways might enhance the operation of heat transfer systems by pulling out cold air at the same time as pushing in warm air.

Our system has a fan only mode so circulates air without heating, which could be good for you if you wanted to circulate fireplace heat around the house, but I don't know whether this is available with heat pump systems.

So in short, you really want to think about/design a whole of house solution with all the component parts working together, rather than (say) start with part 1, add part 2 later, find out it doesn't work with part 1 so try part 3. Rinse and repeat.

AklBen

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#2516006 2-Jul-2020 10:03

So in short, you really want to think about/design a whole of house solution with all the component parts working together, rather than (say) start with part 1, add part 2 later, find out it doesn't work with part 1 so try part 3. Rinse and repeat.

Thank you. Got the Varcoe guys (local) coming out tomorrow to have a look at a range of solutions for us to plan around.

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