Central heating vs heat pumps.

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#1822385 14-Jul-2017 11:59

I think the argument for heat pumps vs central gas heating comes down to a couple of factors:

1. Do you currently have reticulated gas connected? Do you have other appliances using gas? If so, then the benefits accrue with more gas-powered appliances. This has been touched on already by lots of people.

2. Do you have an open plan house? If the house is compartmentalised, then heating throughout the house can get expensive without a central system.

When we got our ducted central gas system installed we briefly explored alternatives such as individual space heaters (gas fuelled) or heat pumps. However, we would need to heat a lounge, a kitchen/dining area, a hallway and three bedrooms, none of which are shared spaces meaning they would all need their own heat source or some way of shifting the heat from room to room. Heat pumps or gas heaters in each room would be far more expensive than the central gas system just on the upfront capital cost, and creates a complex multi-climate system within the house. The central gas system generates a smooth, consistent warmth, heats up fast, and is discreet and unobtrusive (floor vents, rather than radiators). We also benefited from reasonable underfloor access, though the installers could be heard swearing and cursing when they had to squeeze into a few tight places here and there.

For modern-ish homes with large open plan spaces, heat pumps probably make sense though. If you have some kind of heat transfer system as well, then that might make dispersal of heat to bedrooms etc viable. If the heat transfer system is not too expensive, then it might be cost effective to use a decent sized heat pump as your principal heat source. For our situation, though, a heat transfer system would have been just as complex as the ducted central gas system, less effective, and likely to cost similar to what we ended up paying for a gas system.

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#1822471 14-Jul-2017 13:43

MikeB4:
We are currently going through this execise right now. We own a Lockwood home that has high vaulted ceilings all wood. We are looking at replacing the heating in the living areas which are a kithen dinning room and a seperate lounge. The lounge is around 64 square meters and the kitchen dinning around 50 square meters.
The heating in place now is a log burner in the dinning room which is about 15years old and in the lounge is a Rinnai radiant flued reticuated gas heater about 10 years old.The gas heater seems to have lost some of its power this winter and the log burner due to my disability is becoming too difficult for me to manage when my wife is away. And my condition requires that I stay warm with dry environment due to my very compromised immune system.

We have looked at various Heat Pumps, gas heaters and central heating. We had a price for hot water radiators with gas furnace of $18,000 installed which we thought was crazy for heating even though they are very good.
With heat pumps we have reached a point of confusion and it is very hard to get unbiased advice on the subject. Would High wall or floor mount be better? In the lounge a floor mount seems a possibility as it could go where the Rinnai is as there is already a hole in the wall but would a floor mounted unit work with high vaulted ceilings? Do we get a unit with one outside unit and separate inside units or would we need separate outside units?

Another option is new gas heaters such as the type that Rinnai sell like the Rinnai Energy saver 559FT https://rinnai.co.nz/home-gas-heaters . There is the option of ducted under floor gas heating but the clearing under the home is very limited and I am not sure the unit would fit.

We have also considered the option of electric panel heating but this would seem quite expensive to run.

We have reached a point of confusion and have no idea what way we should go, any advise the fine folks here could give would be greatly appreciated.

Man, that sucks!

I agree with @Lizard1977. Unless you're seriously thinking about converting the whole house to electricity, you will end up paying much more on your energy bill for heat pumps than gas.

We had the big Rinnai energy saver model you reference at our old place in our open plan (ish) kitchen, dining and living area. It worked really well to heat up that space, but not the bedrooms. It was loud when it clicked on (click then a woosh) but definitely operated on the principle of make a lot of heat and circulate it to get the room up to temp very fast, then it would switch off again (kind of the anti heat pump slow and continous approach). It was obviously silent when it was off! From memory, these are about $2K each installed, so if you (say) could get by on one or two in the living areas, and another in the bedroom (or some kind of heat transfer arrangement) you'll obviously come out ahead.

But as the previous post said, if you're looking to heat the whole house, a gas ducted central heating option will be more efficient overall since it is designed to circulate the warm air throughout the house. We installed a Bonaire five star system (I have mixed views about whether this particular brand of system was the perfect choice compared to a Brivis or Braemar - it does have some really good features, but the controls are pretty dumb TBH). We have three internal zones plus the fresh air add on (about 9 or 10 outlets, I think), and from memory that was in the order of 13K installed. From what I gather, you can put the actual burner unit outside, so long as there is sufficient underfloor access to run the ducting (which is about 900mm in diameter with the insulation). External installation may not be a bad thing if you can manage it, since the unit isn't silent (ours is in the subfloor and you can hear it in the room above when it kicks on). Obviously consult the experts on that side of things first!

Gas ducted does seem to be cheaper than radiators, and a dryer heat (which may or may not be a good thing depending on your perspective). Gas ducted can also go in ceiling cavities, but that may not be an option with a lockwood?

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#1822474 14-Jul-2017 13:49

Yep, our furnace is located outside the house, and it's mostly fine. Did have a funny moment a couple of weeks ago when a courier turned up first thing to drop off a package and pointed out that something was burning/smoking outside our house. It was the warm air from the furnace flue condensing in the cold air... External installation also makes it easier to service/maintain.

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#1822507 14-Jul-2017 14:46

MikeB4:

We are currently going through this execise right now. We own a Lockwood home that has high vaulted ceilings all wood. We are looking at replacing the heating in the living areas which are a kithen dinning room and a seperate lounge. The lounge is around 64 square meters and the kitchen dinning around 50 square meters.
The heating in place now is a log burner in the dinning room which is about 15years old and in the lounge is a Rinnai radiant flued reticuated gas heater about 10 years old.The gas heater seems to have lost some of its power this winter and the log burner due to my disability is becoming too difficult for me to manage when my wife is away. And my condition requires that I stay warm with dry environment due to my very compromised immune system.

We have looked at various Heat Pumps, gas heaters and central heating. We had a price for hot water radiators with gas furnace of $18,000 installed which we thought was crazy for heating even though they are very good.
With heat pumps we have reached a point of confusion and it is very hard to get unbiased advice on the subject. Would High wall or floor mount be better? In the lounge a floor mount seems a possibility as it could go where the Rinnai is as there is already a hole in the wall but would a floor mounted unit work with high vaulted ceilings? Do we get a unit with one outside unit and separate inside units or would we need separate outside units?

Another option is new gas heaters such as the type that Rinnai sell like the Rinnai Energy saver 559FT https://rinnai.co.nz/home-gas-heaters . There is the option of ducted under floor gas heating but the clearing under the home is very limited and I am not sure the unit would fit.

We have also considered the option of electric panel heating but this would seem quite expensive to run.

We have reached a point of confusion and have no idea what way we should go, any advise the fine folks here could give would be greatly appreciated.

Our open plan living area is similar in that it has high vaulted ceilings. The open plan area (living, dining and kitchen) are probably larger than your area so I think our experience may help.

We had a 7kw high wall heatpump in this space at the high ceiling end of the room and it was hopeless. It had to work very hard to get the room up to a reasonable temperature and because it was working hard for long periods of time, it wasn't cheap to run and it was noisy.

Looking at the calculations they did for the ducted heatpump install, the 7kw unit was only a little undersize but I think the issue was that it was in the wrong place. Being at the highest point in the area, it was probably doing a good job of heating the ceiling rather than the people at floor level!

So if going for a heatpump, a floor mount heatpump would be better than a highwall as it is depositing the heat (or cooling) at the level you're living at.

When we went ducted instead, we wouldn't have gone gas even if we had reticulated gas to the house as we needed the cooling capability as much as the heating, but my understanding is that gas is much cheaper per unit of energy, so if you have gas and you don't need cooling, then gas would seem to be the go. The economics for bottled gas are very different though.

Finally, ducted has the benefits of spreading the heat throughout the house and having all the noisy fans etc outside the house so it is quieter, but that all comes at a cost.

Based on your situation, if cost is an issue and cooling isn't a consideration, it would seem that having the gas heater you already have fixed or replaced would be the most cost effective option. If you want cooling then maybe swapping it for a floor mount heatpump would be the go. If you want to distribute throughout the house, a ducted system is the best option... gas if no cooling requirement, heatpump if you do want to cool the house.

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#1822716 15-Jul-2017 00:00

MikeB4:

We are currently going through this execise right now. We own a Lockwood home that has high vaulted ceilings all wood. We are looking at replacing the heating in the living areas which are a kithen dinning room and a seperate lounge. The lounge is around 64 square meters and the kitchen dinning around 50 square meters.......

.......With heat pumps we have reached a point of confusion and it is very hard to get unbiased advice on the subject. Would High wall or floor mount be better? In the lounge a floor mount seems a possibility as it could go where the Rinnai is as there is already a hole in the wall but would a floor mounted unit work with high vaulted ceilings? Do we get a unit with one outside unit and separate inside units or would we need separate outside units?.......

.........We have reached a point of confusion and have no idea what way we should go, any advise the fine folks here could give would be greatly appreciated.

Our house is like a Lockwood with the timber walls, next to no insulation, cathedral ceilings, plenty of glass and open plan. Pretty well the worst combination you can find for heating.

The living area including bathroom bedrooms is about 100 sqr m. We can close off the upstairs rooms, i.e. the bedrooms and bathroom. but everything else is open. We don't use the two small bedroom a lot so those rooms stay closed up a lot of the time. Until now we have been using a 2400 watt oil column heater supplemented by a fan heater. It was a struggle to heat the house especially if any of the upstairs doors were open. We regularly needed to wear polar fleeces.

We have just installed a 6 kw floor mounted heat pump. It has been mounted where a gas heater used to be mounted. It covers up the ugly piece of galvanised plate the previous owner used to cover the flue hole for the old gas heater. We are pretty happy with the heat it provides. We don't wear polar fleeces any more

It produces enough heat to properly heat the large main bedroom as well. Only on the very coldest of a Waikato morning does it start to struggle a bit. This is the only time it has ever stopped to defrost and then only for about 10 minutes after a couple of hours use.

I think a floor mounted unit is the better option if you have the floor space as it provides better air flow with convection helping with mixing the air.

With your larger area I'd think about a bigger unit, say 8 kw.

We have yet to get our first power bill since the install but based on the amount of time we used the old oil heater and it's power consumption I'm expecting the bill to be lower.

We had gas connected but at well over $30 per month just for the connection fee you had to use a lot of gas to make it pay. Also so far as heating goes you probably use it for less than six months of the year so that make gas even less attractive in my eyes.

Hope this help with your decision making process.

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#1822719 15-Jul-2017 01:38

Insanekiwi:

With bottled gas (45kg x2) and trying to heat one floor (120m2) with heated and ducted fire place would work out okay? Or does it need a city connection? I wonder how long it would last if we have it on every day... (12 hours / day)

It will work fine, could be prohibitively expensive.

Bottled gas has a lower daily rate (bottle rental - normally 33c), and a higher cost per energy charge (works out to be about 17c -18c / kWh). In Auckland Natural gas (street gas) is $1.047/day + 6.4c/kWh (contact). Obviously the latter is better if you are going to be using a lot. (Natural gas is not available everywhere, and even if it is, you need to pay for the install from the street.

A single 45 kg bottle contains 614kWh of energy. If you run a say 5kW output, 70% efficient gas fire, this will last 86 hours, or 7 days at 12 hours a day. Once your first bottle is empty you order it's replacement/fill while you are using the the second. Each bottle will set you back $105 to $110...

I used 5kW as a guess at an average energy consumption. I don't know anything about where you live, or how insulated your house is, but for 120m^2, it wouldn't be surprising if you need 10 to 15kW of heat on very cold days. I don't know about modern gas flame effect fires, but the old one we had in a flat was very inefficient. I guess below 30%...

If you are going to run 12 hours plus a day, I would consider a setup with lower running costs for the heavy lifting of your heating system (you can have a gas fire for ambiance too if you want.)

old3eyes:

I just got this week my first bill since the gas central heating was turned on again. Have only been in the house 3 moths. It was $420 after discount. Jut about died.

Breakdown Power $167.37 441 KwH

Gas $279.14 2516 KwH

Combined bill last month was $234.

Needless to say the auto on / off settings have been change and the heat turned down a bit. If I was building a house I would never have gas as it's too expensive these days. i.e power line rental for month $9.67 , gas $33.92

Our Tauranga house has two Fuji aircon units and the monthly bill is about $160 for this time of year.

Firstly, go and review your retailers pricing, and see if you can swap to a cheaper provider (or a more appropriate plan for your usage). I plugged you usage into contact's Auckland pricing, and got $320.

That said, if you have a big house (especially one insulated to the standards of 15-20 years ago), while $300 per month is a lot of money, is not an unexpected to pay that for 24/7 heating...

Look at the ballpark running costs of here. http://www.centralheating.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/Cost-Comparison-Sheet.pdf Note that website is for modern, high efficiency hyrdonic gear. If your system is ducted, you have duct losses to deal with too.

Of course can't hurt to do an energy audit on your system. Check the DVS system isn't pumping cold air into your house, and possibly consider adding additional insulation where accessible. dropping the set temperature, and number of running hours will also save cost. There may be something wrong with the system (like a hole in a duct), or it may just be old and inefficient...

old3eyes:

The only reason we are using gas is that it's winter and the house has central heating. If we had heat pumps it would be way more cheaper as it is in Tauranga. I would never have gas again . Even before winter te gas bill was expensive compared to what we used (hot water) because of the rip off line charges..

Yes, the daily charges do suck (In one of my old flats which had gas, I worked out that we were at about break even point (all the savings we made from gas being cheaper than electricity, were spent paying the daily fee). We used gas for hot water and cooking (4 people).

That said I think you are wrongly blaming having "gas" for the really high cost.

Modern Heat-pumps cost about the same to run (per heat output) as an efficient gas system. Gas hot water costs less to run than a hot water cylinder.

Your new house is consuming heaps more energy than your old house. (The fact that your new winter electricity bill without heat or hot water is about the same as the same as the old house with these things supports this stance). Morrensville is colder than Tauranga. Central heating is a higher quality outcome than a couple of high wall heat pumps. You are likely compairing modern heat pumps with an old central heating system). Your new house may be larger or worse insulated.

The $160 per month winter power bill at your heat pump heated Tauranga house is considered very low. $240 to $280 would not be considered unusual. I think it is a safe bet that if you swapped gas stuff back to electric, you would still see expensive power bills.

MikeB4:

We are currently going through this execise right now. We own a Lockwood home that has high vaulted ceilings all wood. We are looking at replacing the heating in the living areas which are a kithen dinning room and a seperate lounge. The lounge is around 64 square meters and the kitchen dinning around 50 square meters.
The heating in place now is a log burner in the dinning room which is about 15years old and in the lounge is a Rinnai radiant flued reticuated gas heater about 10 years old.The gas heater seems to have lost some of its power this winter and the log burner due to my disability is becoming too difficult for me to manage when my wife is away. And my condition requires that I stay warm with dry environment due to my very compromised immune system.

We have looked at various Heat Pumps, gas heaters and central heating. We had a price for hot water radiators with gas furnace of $18,000 installed which we thought was crazy for heating even though they are very good.
With heat pumps we have reached a point of confusion and it is very hard to get unbiased advice on the subject. Would High wall or floor mount be better? In the lounge a floor mount seems a possibility as it could go where the Rinnai is as there is already a hole in the wall but would a floor mounted unit work with high vaulted ceilings? Do we get a unit with one outside unit and separate inside units or would we need separate outside units?

Another option is new gas heaters such as the type that Rinnai sell like the Rinnai Energy saver 559FT https://rinnai.co.nz/home-gas-heaters . There is the option of ducted under floor gas heating but the clearing under the home is very limited and I am not sure the unit would fit.

We have also considered the option of electric panel heating but this would seem quite expensive to run.

We have reached a point of confusion and have no idea what way we should go, any advise the fine folks here could give would be greatly appreciated.

Yip, central heating systems are the expensive, especially hydronic (radiators or underfloor) ones, they aren't very common in NZ like in europe. If you didn't already have a water heater, the system could take on that load, saving you the cost of a water heater.

Ducted (either gas or heat pump) is normally cheaper option than hydronic (radiators (gas (heat-pumps are inefficient a driving radiators)) or underfloor (gas or heatpump)). You do need roof-space, or underfloor space to get a ducted system installed.

Regarding gas underfloor, if the ducts themselves can fit under the house (and an installer can slide in to fit them), I think the unit can sit beside the house.

Individual heater's are typically (slightly) more efficient than ducted system (duct insulation is only about R0.9, so you loose heat through the ducts, plus need to spend energy to pump the air along the duct). But with a central system the heat is more evenly distributed... (not feasible to put a heat pump in the toilet room, but easy to put a "Y" into the ductwork, and have a small vent there). In short, central heating is way better, but will cost more to both purchase and to run.

If you go for individual heaters room heaters, your options are really heat pumps, and flued gas.

Heatpumps are currently in flavor. They are typically slightly cheaper to run than a flued gas heater (5.5c/kWh output, vs 7c/kWh output) , and can be used for cooling in summer if you need that.

The downsides are:

heat-pumps efficiency and total heat output drops when the outside temp is really cold. (gas it makes no difference)
They also have a band where they can have issues with iceing (0 Degrees to +3 degrees), mine has never had an issue in Auckland.
noisier than gas heater
require an outside "Box"
They output more, warm air (rather than a gas heater with less very hot air), this can cause cold drafts, and be less comfortable.

High wall, vs floor... Floor is definitely better for heating (heat rises), so best to have something that can blow warm air along the floor (especially important with a valted ceiling). We got a high wall heat-pump as floor space is very important to us, and we had no free wall at low level to use. Note that floor units typically cost a little more, and can be a touch less efficient.

Two smaller heat pumps are better than one big one. (We have a big one and it is noisy, smaller heat pumps are also more efficient)

We don't have gas connected, and I didn't want to pay the connection fee or lines charges, so a heat pump was an easy choice for us. (cost of central heating, meant it was not considered), so it was an easy choice for us.

If you are considering flued gas heaters, there are some very cheap on trade-me at the moment. Normally these run at about $2000 each (+ install). New mini split style heatpumps will cost $1500 - $3500 each installed.

http://www.trademe.co.nz/home-living/heating-cooling/heaters/oil/auction-1371346601.htm

http://www.trademe.co.nz/home-living/heating-cooling/heaters/oil/auction-1371347274.htm

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#1830379 25-Jul-2017 22:15

I've just compared a 29 day period with a similar period last winter. This is the first period with the heat pump installed. While the results are only for one period and I don't remember how hot/cold it was last winter I think the figures are fairly convincing.

The average power usage last year was $16.34 per day and this year $11.52. This is a 29.5% decrease. The heat pump has been used for longer periods than the old column heater was, we are heating a larger area, and the house is SO MUCH warmer. All other electricity consumption has remained the same.

If the powers usage continues like this I'm very happy camper so far as the heat pump is concerned.

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#1830421 26-Jul-2017 01:28

Scott3:
If you are considering flued gas heaters, there are some very cheap on trade-me at the moment. Normally these run at about $2000 each (+ install). New mini split style heatpumps will cost $1500 - $3500 each installed.

http://www.trademe.co.nz/home-living/heating-cooling/heaters/oil/auction-1371346601.htm

http://www.trademe.co.nz/home-living/heating-cooling/heaters/oil/auction-1371347274.htm

Very interesting. Just silly of that seller to list them in a category intended for oil column electric heaters, instead of listing them in the gas heater category.

Also interesting that Paloma make flued gas heaters. (I didn't previously know that). Weird that they are not sold officially in NZ. As Paloma Japan owns Rheem. And the Rheem instant gas hot water heaters are rebadged Paloma water heaters.

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#1835692 2-Aug-2017 12:54

Scott3:

Insanekiwi:

With bottled gas (45kg x2) and trying to heat one floor (120m2) with heated and ducted fire place would work out okay? Or does it need a city connection? I wonder how long it would last if we have it on every day... (12 hours / day)

It will work fine, could be prohibitively expensive.

Bottled gas has a lower daily rate (bottle rental - normally 33c), and a higher cost per energy charge (works out to be about 17c -18c / kWh). In Auckland Natural gas (street gas) is $1.047/day + 6.4c/kWh (contact). Obviously the latter is better if you are going to be using a lot. (Natural gas is not available everywhere, and even if it is, you need to pay for the install from the street.

A single 45 kg bottle contains 614kWh of energy. If you run a say 5kW output, 70% efficient gas fire, this will last 86 hours, or 7 days at 12 hours a day. Once your first bottle is empty you order it's replacement/fill while you are using the the second. Each bottle will set you back $105 to $110...

I used 5kW as a guess at an average energy consumption. I don't know anything about where you live, or how insulated your house is, but for 120m^2, it wouldn't be surprising if you need 10 to 15kW of heat on very cold days. I don't know about modern gas flame effect fires, but the old one we had in a flat was very inefficient. I guess below 30%...

If you are going to run 12 hours plus a day, I would consider a setup with lower running costs for the heavy lifting of your heating system (you can have a gas fire for ambiance too if you want.)

Thanks Scott - this is really helpful. The ducted fireplace has 90% efficiency rating at 8.4kwh. We live in Wellington and after living in Auckland for 20+ years, it certainly feels about 5 degrees colder. We have been here now 13 months, and I don't think apart from Dec, Jan, and Feb - we always had our heaters on. The rental home is now about 30 years old but has been retrofitted with double glazing throughout. To be honest, I don't think it does jack as we lose so much heat overnight and the rooms are cold the next morning and have to start heating up again from scratch. The place is quite large I have to say; and I hope with our brand new build it will be much warmer (and is smaller!)

After reading other threads; I decided to scrape the fireplace idea (it looks nice though..) and go with ducted heat pumps through the whole house (2 level) and Lossnay ventilation system. More likely to achieve the outcome we are after in terms of the warmth and (bonus of cooling if it ever gets too hot) efficiency. Last thing I want is to pay that much to change the bottle every week and not being able to use the heat source due to pricing. I am awaiting to hear as to whether we have a city supply or not.

Thank you for the advice!

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#1835708 2-Aug-2017 13:21

Insanekiwi:

Thanks Scott - this is really helpful. The ducted fireplace has 90% efficiency rating at 8.4kwh. We live in Wellington and after living in Auckland for 20+ years, it certainly feels about 5 degrees colder. We have been here now 13 months, and I don't think apart from Dec, Jan, and Feb - we always had our heaters on. The rental home is now about 30 years old but has been retrofitted with double glazing throughout. To be honest, I don't think it does jack as we lose so much heat overnight and the rooms are cold the next morning and have to start heating up again from scratch. The place is quite large I have to say; and I hope with our brand new build it will be much warmer (and is smaller!)

After reading other threads; I decided to scrape the fireplace idea (it looks nice though..) and go with ducted heat pumps through the whole house (2 level) and Lossnay ventilation system. More likely to achieve the outcome we are after in terms of the warmth and (bonus of cooling if it ever gets too hot) efficiency. Last thing I want is to pay that much to change the bottle every week and not being able to use the heat source due to pricing. I am awaiting to hear as to whether we have a city supply or not.

Thank you for the advice!

We've found two things this year:

Double glazing does make a good difference (assuming you have great ceiling insulation and ideally wall / underfloor insulation)
Keeping the house warm all the time, rather than just say a couple of hours in the morning and a couple of hours in the afternoon makes the house feel a LOT warmer, and the power bill doesn't go up all that much. I haven't worked out exactly how much, because our power bills are still within the same ballpark as last year when we only had them on as needed.

We do turn heating off overnight, except on the coldest nights. If the house is 22 at night on a really cold night it's 18 the next morning. Our house is over 100 years old.

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#1835761 2-Aug-2017 14:32

Timmay (are you on VASK?)

Our place is 23 degrees in the evenings and drop down to around 15 degrees by 5am that's when my time set heaters turn on. This is double glazed 30 year old home. Not sure how much insulation above and below. It's a rental home. We don't have a heat pump in family room sadly. My garage with no heating goes down to 11 degrees. I have Canary security system which monitors these things.

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#1835764 2-Aug-2017 14:33

No idea what VASK means.

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#1835795 2-Aug-2017 15:03

timmmay:

No idea what VASK means.

VASK = Volkswagen, Audi,Skoda car group / forum. There was a guy with a personalised plate Timmay. Just checking. ;)

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#1835800 2-Aug-2017 15:12

Nope not me :)

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#1845666 12-Aug-2017 21:19

Just on the topic, the house I'm in got gas hot water and cooking (natural gas), looking to add upstairs 4 bedrooms with central heating, one company (gas) told me heat pump only last 10-15 years??? As oppose to gas 20-25 years.
Just curious have anyone got any experience on this?

I have quite a few neighbours house with gas central heating, experience pretty good just 1 got gas smell in the house later found out the gas leak....... that's in first year house built too!

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