Cheapest/best Electric./Hybrid

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417 posts

Ultimate Geek

#1432620 22-Nov-2015 12:34

timmmay: May be more practical to get an electric car for your everyday needs and figure you'll rent a big petrol guzzler for the long distance trips.

Probably makes sense really. The leaf is reasonably cheap, there is the charging network, and the batteries of the leaf are cheaper to replace. If I can use the network for my occasional trips to the waikato, then the longer trips are going to be rare in comparison and it will be mostly in auckland travel.

I could probably do the odd camping trip or similar using the charging network too.

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#1432623 22-Nov-2015 12:47

tdgeek: Payback period? Hybrids are expensive and the fuel savings are there but over what payback period. Battery replacement costs? As to the environment, there is a carbon cost to build any car, I'd look only at a full electric car one day. That has solar assistance, this world needs to start thinking about the future, and it isn't, except the likes of Tesla

Hybrids only make sense - financially and environmentally - if you do high mileage.

We made the mistake of buying a Honda hybrid just before I retired - now we hardly use it.
It's a nice car, but the purchase price and depreciation are high.
Although petrol consumption is very low, that is only a fraction of the true running costs and depreciation.

We would have been much better off just buying a small conventional "shopping basket" car.

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alasta

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#1432624 22-Nov-2015 12:57

Sideface:
tdgeek: Payback period? Hybrids are expensive and the fuel savings are there but over what payback period. Battery replacement costs? As to the environment, there is a carbon cost to build any car, I'd look only at a full electric car one day. That has solar assistance, this world needs to start thinking about the future, and it isn't, except the likes of Tesla

Hybrids only make sense - financially and environmentally - if you do high mileage.

Also, you need to be doing that mileage around town because regenerative braking is really of no value unless you're in a stop-start driving environment.

I personally save a lot of money by walking and using public transport for day-to-day transport and just get the car out on odd occasions when I need to travel long distance or transport something heavy. That seems to be the cultural norm in Wellington, but not so much in other parts of the country.

Dreal

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Ultimate Geek

#1432664 22-Nov-2015 15:23

Actually looks like the prius, self imported is much cheaper than the leaf. Leaf seems to be anywhere from 15k up. usually 20 or so.

So unless I can find a proper cheap leaf, and expect the payback over a few years, money wise I am not really saving. Less emissions for sure, but paying a few bob extra for it, unless I can find some super self imported options.

Although that said, I think the prius can be self imported cheap enough, or even brought locally second hand. Just a question of is that actually more efficient/less emissions than other under 10k options. Which I can't really answer. Perhaps similar efficiency would be the 'fortwo' if you can imagine actually driving around in something that dinky.

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Wade

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#1432675 22-Nov-2015 15:46

Everytime i see a late model 2.5 i-tech camry in any colour other than white I can't help but think its actually a relatively good looking and logical car, a largish family orientated car with a bunch of goodies and reasonable performance but with small car economy

It actually scares me that next time around i might actually have to consider one as a viable option :P

turnin

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#1432903 22-Nov-2015 20:53

Dreal:
turnin: Right now I'd say , since you said cheap, that the leaf would be a good bet. Its very fast but its really a mechsnical car fitted with an electric motor( it even has a gearbox of sorts) compared to say a Tesla which is designed from the ground up. The leaf needs the supercharger network to give it legs. I see most are really cheap now and the range anxiety can be confirmed with most having 10 -20 thousand kms on the clock.

I sort of see hybrids as the worst of both worlds , all the maintenance and moving parts of a mechanical car plus the weight of batteries and electric motors.

I'm keen to see how cheap they can make the new Tesla , hopefully we will see some low price points from other manufacturers.

For travelling down to see my mum, I am sure the network would cover it. However, what about IDK, travelling to the coromandal, or wellington - seems like at that point charging so often would be a pian. Not that this is the sort of trip I would make often, but packs a bit of a limit.

If there was a way to drive up the range to 150-160kms, I'd be sold at 100-120kms, I am unsure. Price wise, it seems good. And all electric is my preference, as you say, less moving parts, and also better for the environment/petrol prices.

Sadly plug in hybrids with longer ranges are pricer - and something like the prius, not that much more efficient than an efficient petrol car, and no electric only mode (battery is too small).

Which is why it feels like a conundrum. I'd really prefer the leaf, as far as cheap goes. Just range is slightly too short.

Charge.net.nz shows paeroa and Thames, I think the range on a new leaf is 135k, so take some off for age and yep, you'll probably get a few stomach ulcers worrying. What someone needs to make is a battery trailer

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#1432930 22-Nov-2015 22:21

tdgeek: Payback period? Hybrids are expensive and the fuel savings are there but over what payback period. Battery replacement costs? As to the environment, there is a carbon cost to build any car, I'd look only at a full electric car one day. That has solar assistance, this world needs to start thinking about the future, and it isn't, except the likes of Tesla

Worth noting that in many US states with emission legislation, Toyota warrant their hybrid batteries for 10 years and cite documented examples of first gen Prius cars doing 300,000 MILES on the original battery!

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#1433063 23-Nov-2015 09:09

I am in the early stages of finding a replacement family sedan. One of the vehicles I am looking at is the new Mondeo. While I recognise that NZ is only a small market, I was dismayed to see the hybrid offered in the UK is not offered here. The only alternative is the previously mentioned Camry, which is down on both 'toys' and looks (imho), or the Lexus, which is only about $30000 more than the budget allows. The notable part about the Lexus though is the hybrid versions are only $1000-3000 more expensive than the petrol only versions rather than the $10000 for the Camry.
Since all NZ Mondeos are produced in the same Spanish factory (AFAIK) as those for the UK then the cost of getting them here is no greater than the models already offered locally. The US equivalent, the Fusion, even has a plugin capability as well. Ford would do themselves a favour by at least offering a 'green' alternative, even as a special order. If they are offering a 4 cylinder Mustang then surely they could offer a hybrid Mondeo.

From my perspective the only gains from a petrol hybrid are in urban areas. Once on the open road the gains from regenerative braking are negated by carrying the additional weight of batteries around. Most current hybrids use the electric motor to supplement a smaller combustion engine, normally reducing the power required from combustion by about 25%. To me until hybrids have all their direct drive via electric motors, with a combustion engine to recharge the battery when required they will remain fringe. Chevrolet tried it in a clumsy way in some of their Volts but it had hardly set the motoring world alight. Possibly the combination of fuel cells and plugin charging may be the way ahead but that is going to require huge infrastructure spending, and as always who is going to pay?
Sorry wandered a bit of topic there suffice to say I will probably end up with a conventional family sedan. Now where did I leave that brochure on the new SS-V Redline Commodore? :-P

Edit: Added emoji in case people thought I was serious about the Commodore.

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Wade

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#1433074 23-Nov-2015 09:17

Geektastic:
tdgeek: Payback period? Hybrids are expensive and the fuel savings are there but over what payback period. Battery replacement costs? As to the environment, there is a carbon cost to build any car, I'd look only at a full electric car one day. That has solar assistance, this world needs to start thinking about the future, and it isn't, except the likes of Tesla

Worth noting that in many US states with emission legislation, Toyota warrant their hybrid batteries for 10 years and cite documented examples of first gen Prius cars doing 300,000 MILES on the original battery!

Everytime i go out to the Airport there are at least 50 bazillion Prius's and hybrid camry taxi's, it is almost as if they are the cab of choice, one thing i know about cabbies is they generally do not buy trouble so this has to say something about expected reliability

Dreal

417 posts

Ultimate Geek

#1433245 23-Nov-2015 12:48

turnin:
Dreal:
turnin: Right now I'd say , since you said cheap, that the leaf would be a good bet. Its very fast but its really a mechsnical car fitted with an electric motor( it even has a gearbox of sorts) compared to say a Tesla which is designed from the ground up. The leaf needs the supercharger network to give it legs. I see most are really cheap now and the range anxiety can be confirmed with most having 10 -20 thousand kms on the clock.

I sort of see hybrids as the worst of both worlds , all the maintenance and moving parts of a mechanical car plus the weight of batteries and electric motors.

I'm keen to see how cheap they can make the new Tesla , hopefully we will see some low price points from other manufacturers.

For travelling down to see my mum, I am sure the network would cover it. However, what about IDK, travelling to the coromandal, or wellington - seems like at that point charging so often would be a pian. Not that this is the sort of trip I would make often, but packs a bit of a limit.

If there was a way to drive up the range to 150-160kms, I'd be sold at 100-120kms, I am unsure. Price wise, it seems good. And all electric is my preference, as you say, less moving parts, and also better for the environment/petrol prices.

Sadly plug in hybrids with longer ranges are pricer - and something like the prius, not that much more efficient than an efficient petrol car, and no electric only mode (battery is too small).

Which is why it feels like a conundrum. I'd really prefer the leaf, as far as cheap goes. Just range is slightly too short.

Charge.net.nz shows paeroa and Thames, I think the range on a new leaf is 135k, so take some off for age and yep, you'll probably get a few stomach ulcers worrying. What someone needs to make is a battery trailer

Worst case you can spend a few hours in a camp ground or something - but yeah, long distance, may as well have a second thousand buck old dinger of a petrol car.

There is a battery trailer in the works, I think be sold pre-release from some german or european company.

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RUKI

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#1433252 23-Nov-2015 12:58

Wade: .....
Everytime i go out to the Airport there are at least 50 bazillion Prius's and hybrid camry taxi's, it is almost as if they are the cab of choice, one thing i know about cabbies is they generally do not buy trouble so this has to say something about expected reliability

It is not. I talked to the Boss of Coop Taxi a year ago and to few Prius Taxi drivers - the requirements were at a time - it had to be Prius no older than 10 year old. They do a lot of milage saving on petrol and fast depreciation makes sense for self-employed (owners-operators) co-op taxi drivers.

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#1433256 23-Nov-2015 13:05

I always liked the Holden Volt but being only a four seater it was a pain. But electricity driving the wheels all the time appeals, they just got the design wrong.

I look at the effective L/100KM that Hybrids return e.g the Toyota Camry and my Nissan Altima at 6.5 average stacks up well and my wife's Skoda at 4.7 average does also. So unless I was doing lot of slow and stop start city type driving the Hybrids just don't
make sense cost wise.

robjg63

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#1433262 23-Nov-2015 13:13

There are actually quite a few hybrids we dont get here - Hyundai (for one)have a Sonata hybrid.
I gather there is also a plugin Toyota available in some markets. Peugeot make a hybrid as well - I think its a diesel/electric. Taxi drivers always tell you the Toyotas are extremely reliable (as per the Toyota reputation). I understand they get good deals from Toyota on the Camry as well.

I really can't understand why the NZ government is not assisting the adoption of Electric/Hybrid cars. We have one of the most renewable power generation grids anywhere - the savings in not importing so much oil must be massive...

Some of the power companies have been putting a few fast chargers around the place. The fast chargers can apparently do a 20min (or so) charge.

On another note I actually saw a Tesla S parked in a driveway yesterday in Mt Eden. I was going for a walk and thought this particular car was unusual - then thought I recognised the Tesla symbol - which it was. It was a LHD though - that would suck I reckon - Still awesome looking car - they are quite large.

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RUKI

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#1433270 23-Nov-2015 13:26

Dreal:....The leaf is reasonably cheap, there is the charging network, and the batteries of the leaf are cheaper to replace. ....

I think I will have Leaf one day as a test car for my lab.
What few second hand dealers are importing to NZ is first generation Leaf with already degraded range.
I do not think Leaf's batteries are "cheaper" to replace then Toyota hybrid traction batteries. Although Nissan promise ro change the pack if capacity drops <80% within timeframe (not sure if that applies to imported second hand from Japan).
Leaf's battery is under the car, extremely heavy and not a one man job to replace. There are no wrecks yet. Your only choice is new from Dealership. If Leaf is first gen - you also have to pay for ad-onn box to fit new gen battery into the first gen Leaf.

Chargers coming with Leaf from Japan are poorly modded for 230Volts (from 110V).

Extra 35 fast chargers promissed to be build in Auckland will degrade your battery quicker than standard charging (fact).

The only source for Leaf battery is Leaf, vs

When it comes to Toyota - majority of hybrids run on the same NP2 (7.2V) modules - the number of those differs. Few hybrid models have 9.6v modules but those are also interexchangable between models;

It means that Prius or Estima or Camry or Lexus (e.g. GS450) battery can be fixed using donor modules from other Toyota hybrids.
www.hybrids.co.nz (you may wish to bookmark my site for future reference). Plenty of Toyota wrecks around. Wreckers are clueless and have no tools for testing batteries. In 40% cases from my experience what they sell are already dead batteries beyond repair. Some just because have been sitting far too long at the yard not charged...

I am keen on having couple of cars being donated to my Lab: Prius (> year 2012) and Leaf (> 2012) for the purpose of testing rebuild batteries in real road conditions in the city and on the mountain roads (Waitakere -> Piha). If you know wealthy New Zealander - please wisper in their ears - they can donate for the benefit of Auckland hybrids/EV users.

RUKI

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#1433278 23-Nov-2015 13:34

robjg63: ....
I really can't understand why the NZ government is not assisting the adoption of Electric/Hybrid cars. We have one of the most renewable power generation grids anywhere - the savings in not importing so much oil must be massive........

It may seems like nothing is happening but there is some traction on the very high level currently happening as we speak... Big decision makers are very supportive of the whole idea - the question is about the business model and who will bear the cost of the infrastructure. Same old question - "what's in it for me as a business..".. I am looking optimistically - as we all should benefit (have a good feeling about it)..

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