Hamilton to Auckland rail service

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#2305256 24-Aug-2019 14:34

Obraik:

How many people would move from Auckland to Hamilton if they could get to their job in Auckland in a reasonable amount of time? If they end up building the 160km/h train lines between the two cities I would do it.

I'm curious how much you'd be prepared to pay for such a service. Would you be prepared to pay somewhere north of $200 per week for such a service? Even at that price point it would be heavily subsided well beyond any subsidy NZTA currently offer for public transport remembering estimates for high speed rail could well be $10+ billion just between Hamilton and Auckland.

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#2305258 24-Aug-2019 14:44

sbiddle:

Obraik:

How many people would move from Auckland to Hamilton if they could get to their job in Auckland in a reasonable amount of time? If they end up building the 160km/h train lines between the two cities I would do it.

I'm curious how much you'd be prepared to pay for such a service. Would you be prepared to pay somewhere north of $200 per week for such a service? Even at that price point it would be heavily subsided well beyond any subsidy NZTA currently offer for public transport remembering estimates for high speed rail could well be $10+ billion just between Hamilton and Auckland.

The counter-point on the cost would be the practical gains though. Yes, it may be expensive, but it's viable and won't massively impact on the NIMBY-ism rampant in Auckland regarding high density housing, amongst other things. Auckland needs to either build up rapidly, or become easily accessed from further away. No amount of roads will do that, unless we ban cars and make it bus only. And who knows - maybe if we can get people living out of the city but commuting, the new, easier access in places like Hamilton will make them move viable for people to live in, causing them to grow, increasing the desirability to live outside of Auckland.

We can't just keep saying "Oh, it's too expensive", because it's ALWAYS been too expensive, and it's not getting cheaper. I'd rather fixes to Aucklands problems benefit the surrounding towns and cities, though, and roads won't do that.

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#2305304 24-Aug-2019 15:21

toejam316:

The counter-point on the cost would be the practical gains though. Yes, it may be expensive, but it's viable and won't massively impact on the NIMBY-ism rampant in Auckland regarding high density housing, amongst other things. Auckland needs to either build up rapidly, or become easily accessed from further away. No amount of roads will do that, unless we ban cars and make it bus only. And who knows - maybe if we can get people living out of the city but commuting, the new, easier access in places like Hamilton will make them move viable for people to live in, causing them to grow, increasing the desirability to live outside of Auckland.

We can't just keep saying "Oh, it's too expensive", because it's ALWAYS been too expensive, and it's not getting cheaper. I'd rather fixes to Aucklands problems benefit the surrounding towns and cities, though, and roads won't do that.

I'm not saying it shouldn't happen. I'm asking how much people are willing to pay. If people aren't willing to pay $200+ per week then there is no real point even writing business a business plan.

High speed rail would be a great idea if the population between Hamilton and Auckland was 3-4 times what it is now. Even Australia is grappling with things such as High Speed rail due to the costs - you have literally thousands of people who commute daily as far north as Newcastle into Sydney and even they can't justify the costs.

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#2305309 24-Aug-2019 15:30

The thing is, Australia has much better transport already. You can get a train from Newcastle to Sydney. You can get a train to a lot of places from a lot of places. If I want to get from my house to Auckland without a car, I'm pretty screwed. I'm flying out to Melbourne in October - and I'm getting friends to drive me to Auckland because there's really no good alternatives. A solid train service would provide an alternative.

As for the "don't frame it as a business plan" thing, the current political climate is designed AROUND everything being a business plan. The only way to get something through like this would be to pretend it's going to pay for itself, and then go "Oh no it didn't". I suspect proposing a not for profit, help Auckland and surrounding communities train service would go down about as well as Capital Gain Tax with the same people who sunk Capital Gain Tax. It might even be called Socialist, heaven forbid.

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#2305310 24-Aug-2019 15:30

In my book the money would be better spent encouraging businesses to move out of Auckland. Sleepyhead's move to Ohinewai being a prime example.
But if the CEO lives in Paratai Drive, that ain't gonna happen.

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#2305312 24-Aug-2019 15:34

Dingbatt: In my book the money would be better spent encouraging businesses to move out of Auckland. Sleepyhead's move to Ohinewai being a prime example.
But if the CEO lives in Paratai Drive, that ain't gonna happen.

That's the beautiful spiral of Auckland though - companies are there because all the workers are there, and workers are there because all the companies are there.

You've got to move one part out before you can move the other, and public transport helps move the employees further out, which then makes it seem much more viable to move or expand into another location that's not in the dense nightmare that Auckland is. Hamilton is pretty much prime for this, get everyone taking the train in from the development around The Base, and eventually maybe some of those companies could move to Hamilton and have traffic going back the other way, from Auckland TO Hamilton. Bit of a pipe dream, but wouldn't it be nice.

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#2305313 24-Aug-2019 15:34

toejam316:

The thing is, Australia has much better transport already. You can get a train from Newcastle to Sydney. You can get a train to a lot of places from a lot of places. If I want to get from my house to Auckland without a car, I'm pretty screwed. I'm flying out to Melbourne in October - and I'm getting friends to drive me to Auckland because there's really no good alternatives. A solid train service would provide an alternative.

I wouldn't go as far as saying Australia has better transport. Sydney has great transport. Melbourne still doesn't even have a way to get to the airport that doesn't involve being stuck in traffic.

Sydney works because it has the population. That's what NZ is lacking to make such things possible.

Australia still can't even build a good business case to get HS rail over the starting line even with their population, and now the UK is now looking to scrap HS2 simply because of the cost of building high speed rail.

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#2305356 24-Aug-2019 15:44

sbiddle:

toejam316:

The thing is, Australia has much better transport already. You can get a train from Newcastle to Sydney. You can get a train to a lot of places from a lot of places. If I want to get from my house to Auckland without a car, I'm pretty screwed. I'm flying out to Melbourne in October - and I'm getting friends to drive me to Auckland because there's really no good alternatives. A solid train service would provide an alternative.

I wouldn't go as far as saying Australia has better transport. Sydney has great transport. Melbourne still doesn't even have a way to get to the airport that doesn't involve being stuck in traffic.

Sydney works because it has the population. That's what NZ is lacking to make such things possible.

Australia still can't even build a good business case to get HS rail over the starting line even with their population, and now the UK is now looking to scrap HS2 simply because of the cost of building high speed rail.

Thank god we're not building a high speed rail system then, and just repurposing our under-utilized one. Hopefully someone else will wear the pain and bring down the cost for all the high speed stuff later down the line, when we can benefit from it more readily. As it stands we've got to find something better than the ol' Infernal Confusion Engine, and I think that rehabilitating our rail system makes a lot more sense than trying to subsidize our fleet into being =<8 year old EVs, which is really the only other option for anything long term.

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#2305362 24-Aug-2019 15:55

sbiddle:

toejam316:

The thing is, Australia has much better transport already. You can get a train from Newcastle to Sydney. You can get a train to a lot of places from a lot of places. If I want to get from my house to Auckland without a car, I'm pretty screwed. I'm flying out to Melbourne in October - and I'm getting friends to drive me to Auckland because there's really no good alternatives. A solid train service would provide an alternative.

I wouldn't go as far as saying Australia has better transport. Sydney has great transport. Melbourne still doesn't even have a way to get to the airport that doesn't involve being stuck in traffic.

Sydney works because it has the population. That's what NZ is lacking to make such things possible.

Australia still can't even build a good business case to get HS rail over the starting line even with their population, and now the UK is now looking to scrap HS2 simply because of the cost of building high speed rail.

Melbourne's heavy rail link to the airport starts in 2022 with a cost of $5 billion plus. I suspect it will be finished long before Auckland gets a link to the airport.

Regards,

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#2305472 24-Aug-2019 21:17

sbiddle: I still wonder how many people will use it even with the massive subsidy.

88 mins to get to Papakura and you've then got up to change trains to head closer to the city with Britomart still being up to 55 mins away.

Why on earth is it so slow?

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#2305473 24-Aug-2019 21:19

sbiddle:

toejam316:

The thing is, Australia has much better transport already. You can get a train from Newcastle to Sydney. You can get a train to a lot of places from a lot of places. If I want to get from my house to Auckland without a car, I'm pretty screwed. I'm flying out to Melbourne in October - and I'm getting friends to drive me to Auckland because there's really no good alternatives. A solid train service would provide an alternative.

I wouldn't go as far as saying Australia has better transport. Sydney has great transport. Melbourne still doesn't even have a way to get to the airport that doesn't involve being stuck in traffic.

Sydney works because it has the population. That's what NZ is lacking to make such things possible.

Australia still can't even build a good business case to get HS rail over the starting line even with their population, and now the UK is now looking to scrap HS2 simply because of the cost of building high speed rail.

I read somewhere recently that 50% of NZ taxpayers actually pay no net tax due to WFF etc etc.

I suspect that what we lack is not so much population as actual tax payers.

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#2305510 24-Aug-2019 21:51

Geektastic:

sbiddle: I still wonder how many people will use it even with the massive subsidy.

88 mins to get to Papakura and you've then got up to change trains to head closer to the city with Britomart still being up to 55 mins away.

Why on earth is it so slow?

Part of the track goes through a protected wetlands... where it’s slow single track... - even outside of the wetlands its not a great track eg lots of sharp curves - bridges etc so not great for ‘fast passenger rail’ but adequate for freight where it’s not time critical.

I guess it is the downside of the cost saving that comes with using the exisiting resources.

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#2305560 25-Aug-2019 04:17

Geektastic:
sbiddle: I still wonder how many people will use it even with the massive subsidy.

88 mins to get to Papakura and you've then got up to change trains to head closer to the city with Britomart still being up to 55 mins away.

Why on earth is it so slow?

Almost all of our track was built in the nineteenth century.

Sometimes I just sit and think. Other times I just sit.

sbiddle

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#2305593 25-Aug-2019 09:05

old3eyes:

Melbourne's heavy rail link to the airport starts in 2022 with a cost of $5 billion plus. I suspect it will be finished long before Auckland gets a link to the airport.

It's *planned* to start in 2022. It's been planned to start many times over the last few decades.

Nobody will believe anything until construction starts, because they've got so close many times before!

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#2305769 25-Aug-2019 17:16

Coming from Europe, I am strongly in favour of rail as a matter of principle. I haven't studied the issue here from a population density or cost per head perspective, so can't comment on that. All I can say is I have long been perplexed by the almost total lack of meaningful intercity public transport facilities in this country. A current case in point for me: I need to undergo extensive dental work. The specialist care I require is in Hamilton. I live in Hawke's Bay. There are no domestic flights between there and here. There is no rail service. The only way to travel between the two points, other than by private car, is by bus with a stopover in Taupo. This makes it practically impossible to go there, have treatment, and come back in the same day, so add overnight accommodation to the cost. Pardon me if I find this slightly ridiculous for a supposedly grown-up country!

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