Could a production electric car reach 500 KPH anytime soon?

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#1873928 28-Sep-2017 06:01

Coil:

WyleECoyoteNZ:

And in terms of getting to the top speed of a Chiron or Veyron, as other have said, there aren't many places to do it, but you can have bragging rights at events like Vmax200.

http://www.vmax200.com/

You sure? Maybe not in a veyron or chiron but i've seen and heard of some real speed down this stretch.

*Edited due to formatting kept goign south.

I know a guy who hasn't had a licence (or his bike) for quite a long time for doing over 260km/h on that stretch of road.

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#1873931 28-Sep-2017 07:24

That stretch has got nothing on country/open roads

Djmixerdomo

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#1873966 28-Sep-2017 09:31

This was just released today and is quite relevant.

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kingdragonfly

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#1873968 28-Sep-2017 09:36

See next post

kingdragonfly

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#1873976 28-Sep-2017 09:53

Djmixerdomo:
This was just released today and is quite relevant.

Thanks Djmixerdomo. I just now watch that video, after I just posted the previous post.

I think I got his points.

He said that electric motors are more efficient, but do require the same amount of cooling per HP.

This came down to temperature differentials.

Internal combustion engine generate more heat, but can run at a higher maximum temperature.

The outside air is much cooler compared to the ICE engine temperature: big differentials mean easier cooling.

Electric batteries and motors generate less heat, but run at a much lower maximum temperature.

So the outside air is closer to the maximum temperature: smaller differential means harder cooling.

frankv

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#1874001 28-Sep-2017 11:04

kingdragonfly:
frankv:

EVs have "on-board efficiency" of around 80% according to Wikipedia. I guess this means that 20% of the battery energy gets wasted as heat. So putting 3000hp out (is that measured at the wheels?) means that 750hp is waste heat.

Wikipedia says ICEs are at best 37% efficient, and typically 18-20%. Let's assume a Bugatti Veyron SS engine is 30% efficient when making 1200bhp. So it must spit out about 2400hp in heat (and noise).

So for a rough approximation I guess that an EV needs about 1/3 the cooling of an ICE car.

So in the YouTube video about the Bugatti, the author made the point that the aerodynamics for the Veyron was the same as a Cadillac SUV.

The reason was the Bugatti had 10 radiators, in various scoops.

Based on the various forces, he calculated it needed 1,800 HP (plus 3,000 HP of cooling)

So anyhow less cooling = less drag = less HP.

I don't know what the final HP figure would be, but I'll WAG it at 1,000 HP to reach the same performance with body with less air scoops.

My guesstimates were based on Wikipedia which says the Veyron produces 1200bhp. Probably 3000hp of waste heat is more likely than my guesstimate of 2400hp. And, yes, forcing air into ducts and through radiator cores will cause drag, and potentially lots of it.

There's no simple relationship between "heat extracted" and "drag induced". You can even use the hot air that has gone through the radiator to produce thrust (The Meredith effect). The P51 Mustang produces net thrust from its cooling system. If Bugatti is clever, there may be no net drag from the radiators at all.

But it's tricky; to have adequate cooling at low speeds, you need large scoops. At high speeds, you can get away with smaller scoops because the airspeed of the vehicle means you catch a greater mass of air for the same scoop area. A scoop that is too large will cause drag. High performance aircraft have variable geometry in their cooling systems to maximise cooling at slow speeds and minimize drag at high speeds.

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#1874041 28-Sep-2017 11:34

frankv:

Wikipedia says ICEs are at best 37% efficient, and typically 18-20%. Let's assume a Bugatti Veyron SS engine is 30% efficient when making 1200bhp. So it must spit out about 2400hp in heat (and noise).

But a good chunk of that heat is simply dumped out the back with the exhaust gases.

In an EV performing to the extremes required to hit 500kmh you will generate that in the battery due to discharge, the conductors to the motor and the motor itself. Presumably you will be inverting to AC and the inverter will get hot as well.

Could that all be managed in a production car and be a reliable safe system? I have some doubts.

In a pencil car that runs for a few minutes, clearly it is possible.

Mike

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#1874235 28-Sep-2017 16:36

The irony is that batteries and electric motors that normally run hot would be easier to cool.

Obviously it wouldn't be fun sitting on top of a bunch of red-hot batteries.

Someone calculated on specific internal combustion engines seem to be more efficient till 27 C ambient temperature, when it got less efficient

http://eprints.uthm.edu.my/7540/1/MOHAMAD_FUAD_BIN_ABDUL_AZIZ.pdf

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#1886289 19-Oct-2017 15:08

The Veyron at max chat burns through a tank of gas in 12 minutes.

An EV doing crazy speeds would also use all it's juice in a similarly short time.

I don't think cooling would be a big issue in the EV batteries - yes they would produce heat, but there is so much thermal mass in a battery that by the time they heat up, they'll be flat and producing no more heat. It isn't like a regular ICE which has to be hot and sheading heat before it can reach max performance and will seize in a few minutes if you don't actively cool them.

It isn't the EV side of things (motors, batteries) that will limit speed, it is the wheels. The TGV 4402 train reached over 574 kph with reasonably standard (train) running gear but has solid steel wheels.

The stretch of motorway spoken about above was levelled using lasers and is super smooth. It is easy to get speed creep on it because it is so smooth you loose perspective of your speed. This is what is has over long straight country roads else where in the country.

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#1886297 19-Oct-2017 15:32

I'm more interested in smooth road technology for driving an EV on than a high speed EV ; ).

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#1886307 19-Oct-2017 15:54

tripper1000:

The stretch of motorway spoken about above was levelled using lasers and is super smooth. It is easy to get speed creep on it because it is so smooth you loose perspective of your speed. This is what is has over long straight country roads else where in the country.

Goudies Rd Reparoa was the location of the former NZ land speed record, until someone with a Lambo managed to get access to Ohakea...

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#1895833 6-Nov-2017 10:22

Koenigsegg has gone close.

These guys aren't tuners, but builders of very bespoke Hypercars.

A Agera RS has managed a 2 way average of 277.9mph (444.6km/h). The Agera RS hit 284.55mph one way, and 271.19 on the return run.

https://www.topgear.com/car-news/supercars/koenigsegg-has-smashed-worlds-fastest-car-record

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#1895843 6-Nov-2017 10:37

MikeB4:

jarledb:

Whats the point of production cars that go any faster than 150-200 KMH?

Or more than 110kmh?

Agreed. The ranks of whose who imagine they can "accelerate out of a problem" is probably closely correlated with the speed component of the road toll.

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WyleECoyoteNZ

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#1895901 6-Nov-2017 11:59

WyleECoyoteNZ:

Koenigsegg has gone close.

These guys aren't tuners, but builders of very bespoke Hypercars.

A Agera RS has managed a 2 way average of 277.9mph (444.6km/h). The Agera RS hit 284.55mph one way, and 271.19 on the return run.

https://www.topgear.com/car-news/supercars/koenigsegg-has-smashed-worlds-fastest-car-record

Video has emerged this morning of the run.

http://www.autocar.co.nz/autocar-news-app/koenigsegg-agera-rs-sets-new-production-car-top-speed

Wow.

jpoc

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#1896298 6-Nov-2017 18:20

mudguard:

There's just too much drag on a 'production' car. Honda did 397kmh on the salt flats about 10 years ago with their F1 car, which was run with as little drag as possible.

I don't know if it was using the year before 3.0L V10 or whether it was the 2.4L V8. Either way it will have had at least 700-900bhp, perhaps 20,000rpm and around 700kg.

You just have to push too much air out of the way. Something from Le Man is much more slippery than an F1 car, I think Peugeot hit 407kmh in 1989 before they put the chicanes in.

How big a motor can you fit in a Prius??

Wrong.

A formula one car will have between four and six times as much drag as a modern road car.

The F1 car will have wings and other aerodynamic devices designed to increase down-force so that it can corner with a lateral acceleration over three times higher than can be achieved by a production car. It also has uncovered wheels and suspension components that are just hanging out there in the air-flow. Even in low drag configurations it will still have much more drag than a production car.

A closed wheel sports racer such as you will see at Le Mans will have lower drag than an F1 car but still a lot more drag than you would see on a production car as it still has to generate down-force.

If you want to see a competition car with lower drag than a production car, you need to go back to the late fifties or early sixties (D-type Jag, Lotus 11 or 23) before down-force became a thing.

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