RUCs to apply to all vehicles (incl EVs), replacing road user tax on petrol

Forums › Transport (cars, bikes and boats) › RUCs to apply to all vehicles (incl EVs), replacing road user tax on petrol

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Networkn
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#3127243 13-Sep-2023 17:06

mattwnz:

I think that people do forget that driving is not a right, it is a privilege.

In countries with excellent and affordable public transport, that is true, but in NZ where it's neither, I don't think it's a privilege. Unless you consider medical care, education, and working, a privilege.

Handle9

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#3127244 13-Sep-2023 17:09

alasta:

I wonder how feasible it would be for fuelling stations to have a facility where people can key in their registration number and current odometer reading and have the RUC added to their fuel charge. Obviously the fuel companies would need grants and ongoing admin revenue to make this work, but it might reduce compliance costs?

The only way to get broad based compliance will be for fuel stations to check RUCs before allowing fuelling. Compliance is going to be a shambles either way.

HarmLessSolutions

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#3127245 13-Sep-2023 17:10

networkn:

There is no practical way around heavy trucks unless everyone stops ordering their iPhones and big screen TV's which I don't see happening any time soon. They are a necessary part of life. EV's are new and around 25% heavier. There are also a lot more cars than trucks, so the impact is going to be more than currently.

The HGVs that are trashing our roading network are 40-50T+ long haul vehicles carrying logs, industrial products and other primary produce. The impact of such vehicles are absolutely huge and a few hundred domestic vehicles pale into insignificance in comparison. A rejig of the RUC system overall is a prime opportunity to review the RUC rates for these large trucks.

As for your spurious current FUD derived heavier EVs is concerned have you checked the GVW of the average DCU vs. EV?

https://www.harmlesssolutions.co.nz/

networkn

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#3127253 13-Sep-2023 17:22

HarmLessSolutions:

The HGVs that are trashing our roading network are 40-50T+ long haul vehicles carrying logs, industrial products and other primary produce. The impact of such vehicles are absolutely huge and a few hundred domestic vehicles pale into insignificance in comparison. A rejig of the RUC system overall is a prime opportunity to review the RUC rates for these large trucks.

You missed the point.

The trucks we currently use for the transport of those items have been around forever, and our current taxation takes those into account. Replacing any part of our road fleet, regardless of role, with heavier units, will have additional impact, and since those vehicles are also no longer contributing to the taxation that covers the maintenance, you are twice bitten.

tdgeek

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#3127256 13-Sep-2023 17:26

mattwnz:

Plugin hybrids potentially may never need any petrol if it is only ever driving short distances. so they would need to be managed more like EVs IMO. But they aren't very poplar and only a very small number on the road and they seem to be more of a transition technology, as the future is EV.

https://evdb.nz/ev-percentage-nz

Ok, so non plugins are MUCH more common, and plugins much less so, but Id not say they are non popular. Still good numbers, and bear in mind they are newer. Non plugins can be old

tdgeek

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#3127270 13-Sep-2023 17:32

jarledb:

How would you figure out if a plugin hybrid is matching point 1?

I would think you would expect all plugin hybrids to be paying RUC and then possibly claiming back any petrol used (if RUC stays on petrol). Which seems icky to me. If you don't add RUC for plugin hybrids and call thenm petrol cars, then that leaves a big hole in the system for anyone that are able to run those mostly on electricity.

The suggested RUC on all cars (National and possibly one of the recommendations from Waka Kotahi) would mean that cars that use a lot of petrol probably will get off cheaper than today. A possible fix for that would be to add a CO2 fee to petrol as well as RUC per km for petrol cars.

But almost no matter how you slice it, there is a high chance of introducing a system that is skewed one way or another.

If its a hybrid, its a hybrid, plug in or not. So they join EV's /Diesel and pay RUC on mileage, they can claim their fuel back which is a process that is in place now

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HarmLessSolutions

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#3127271 13-Sep-2023 17:33

networkn:

HarmLessSolutions:

The HGVs that are trashing our roading network are 40-50T+ long haul vehicles carrying logs, industrial products and other primary produce. The impact of such vehicles are absolutely huge and a few hundred domestic vehicles pale into insignificance in comparison. A rejig of the RUC system overall is a prime opportunity to review the RUC rates for these large trucks.

You missed the point.

The trucks we currently use for the transport of those items have been around forever, and our current taxation takes those into account. Replacing any part of our road fleet, regardless of role, with heavier units, will have additional impact, and since those vehicles are also no longer contributing to the taxation that covers the maintenance, you are twice bitten.

https://www.nzta.govt.nz/media-releases/the-50max-story/

Also worth comparing the 50MAX allowable road use to where the worst roading degradation is currently being witnessed: https://www.nzta.govt.nz/commercial-driving/high-productivity/50max/50max-information-for-operators-and-manufacturers/map-of-50max-routes/

You seem to still be pushing the EVs are heavier so more road damaging line. This is a totally facetious claim so interested in your providing some reputable basis for that claim. 40 & 50T trucks cause pavement deformation and substructure disturbance whereas <3.5T vehicles are limited to a little abrasion of the seal surface.

https://www.harmlesssolutions.co.nz/

mattwnz

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#3127279 13-Sep-2023 17:42

tdgeek:

mattwnz:

Most hybrids can't be driven on EV mode (or only at very low speeds for less than a km), the engine decides when the petrol or electric gets used. So it is basically just a more efficient petrol engine and can save about 20-30% of fuel and emissions. So it isn't much different to either driving a smaller car and / or driving far more conservatively and on flat roads without extra loads in the car to reduce fuel usage. Plugin hybrids potentially may never need any petrol if it is only ever driving short distances. so they would need to be managed more like EVs IMO. But they aren't very poplar and only a very small number on the road and they seem to be more of a transition technology, as the future is EV.

I read the other day that hybrids are very popular, but you're saying that plugins arent? Its mainly non plugins?

https://evdb.nz/ev-stats

It doesnt show non plug ins, but it infers to me that they are lower than plugins. I would have thought non plugs ins are more transitional as they are cheaper, while PHEV's cater for range anxiety but you get good use of the EV side, so yes also transitional but also are essentially full EV's in an urban setting

There aren't that many plugin hybrids sold in NZ more recently as full EV has gain traction. Toyota do some, such as the RAV4 Prime and Prius Prime, but don't appear to bring them into NZ. Mazda have just released their first one, the CX60 but not sure how popular it will be considering it is about the same price as proper EV. I think Honda and Kia do plugin hybrids, but I know someone who has just sold there one and got a proper EV, because they got fed up with the low and dropping EV range. IMO they don't really make that much sense when you are carrying a ICE in the car that may very rarely get used.

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#3127280 13-Sep-2023 17:45

HarmLessSolutions:

networkn:

There is no practical way around heavy trucks unless everyone stops ordering their iPhones and big screen TV's which I don't see happening any time soon. They are a necessary part of life. EV's are new and around 25% heavier. There are also a lot more cars than trucks, so the impact is going to be more than currently.

The HGVs that are trashing our roading network are 40-50T+ long haul vehicles carrying logs, industrial products and other primary produce. The impact of such vehicles are absolutely huge and a few hundred domestic vehicles pale into insignificance in comparison. A rejig of the RUC system overall is a prime opportunity to review the RUC rates for these large trucks.

As for your spurious current FUD derived heavier EVs is concerned have you checked the GVW of the average DCU vs. EV?

Also National increased the maximum weight trucks could be, and since, then the condition of the roads has gotten worse. I don't think that is a coincidence. IMO the condition of road surface in the Wellington and Wairarapa is the worst I have even seen. I expect a summer of slow traffic and resurfacing, probably in chip

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#3127283 13-Sep-2023 17:48

mattwnz:

There aren't that many plugin hybrids sold in NZ more recently as full EV has gain traction. Toyota do some, such as the RAV4 Prime and Prius Prime, but don't appear to bring them into NZ. Mazda have just released their first one, the CX60 but not sure how popular it will be considering it is about the same price as proper EV. I think Honda and Kia do plugin hybrids, but I know someone who has just sold there one and got a proper EV, because they got fed up witd the low and dropping EV range.

The graphs show they are a consistent performer. Not as much as BEV, but solid.

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#3127291 13-Sep-2023 17:56

tdgeek:

mattwnz:

There aren't that many plugin hybrids sold in NZ more recently as full EV has gain traction. Toyota do some, such as the RAV4 Prime and Prius Prime, but don't appear to bring them into NZ. Mazda have just released their first one, the CX60 but not sure how popular it will be considering it is about the same price as proper EV. I think Honda and Kia do plugin hybrids, but I know someone who has just sold there one and got a proper EV, because they got fed up witd the low and dropping EV range.

The graphs show they are a consistent performer. Not as much as BEV, but solid.

It says the market share in the last period were flat for PHEVS, which corresponds to a far wider range of EVs now being available within the last year. Including a range of far cheaper EVs such as the MG4, although this may change with the removal of the CCR. I was speaking to a new car dealer about PHEVs, and he was saying that they were the worst of both worlds and that they were more about looking efficient on paper, but there is no requirement for PHEV owners to actually plug them in and use them as an EV, so they could be far less efficient as a result. Whereas EVs must be plugged in to use them.

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tdgeek

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#3127296 13-Sep-2023 18:04

mattwnz:

It says the market share in the last period were flat for PHEVS, which corresponds to a far wider range of EVs now being available within the last year. Including a range of far cheaper EVs such as the MG4, although this may change with the removal of the CCR. I was speaking to a new car dealer about PHEVs, and he was saying that they were the worst of both worlds and that they were more about looking efficient on paper, but there is no requirement for PHEV owners to actually plug them in and use them as an EV, so they could be far less efficient as a result. Whereas EVs must be plugged in to use them.

Flat? The light blue is up year on year, as it was also for 2022 to 2023

If someone bought a PHEV and doesnt bother plugging them in there are a fool.

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#3127297 13-Sep-2023 18:05

HarmLessSolutions:

You seem to still be pushing the EVs are heavier so more road damaging line. This is a totally facetious claim so interested in your providing some reputable basis for that claim. 40 & 50T trucks cause pavement deformation and substructure disturbance whereas <3.5T vehicles are limited to a little abrasion of the seal surface.

BEVs are significantly heavier than otherwise similar sized ICE vehicles though. E.g. a model 3 Tesla is 1752Kg vs a Corolla 1340Kg. Audi eTron 55 2490Kg vs Audi Q8 2148Kg

Handle9

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#3127345 13-Sep-2023 18:10

johno1234:

HarmLessSolutions:

You seem to still be pushing the EVs are heavier so more road damaging line. This is a totally facetious claim so interested in your providing some reputable basis for that claim. 40 & 50T trucks cause pavement deformation and substructure disturbance whereas <3.5T vehicles are limited to a little abrasion of the seal surface.

BEVs are significantly heavier than otherwise similar sized ICE vehicles though. E.g. a model 3 Tesla is 1752Kg vs a Corolla 1340Kg. Audi eTron 55 2490Kg vs Audi Q8 2148Kg

The obvious question is "so what?"

If it's not actually producing more damage why does the increase in weight matter?

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#3127348 13-Sep-2023 18:16

Handle9:

johno1234:

BEVs are significantly heavier than otherwise similar sized ICE vehicles though. E.g. a model 3 Tesla is 1752Kg vs a Corolla 1340Kg. Audi eTron 55 2490Kg vs Audi Q8 2148Kg

The obvious question is "so what?"

If it's not actually producing more damage why does the increase in weight matter?

Absolutely. A couple of cherry picked comparisons is hardly compelling evidence of a blanket claim and how about those already heavy DCUs loaded with passengers and equipment towing a laden trailer (which doesn't attract RUCs)?

As I said above the overriding factor is that <3.5T vehicles contribute SFA to roading degradation.

https://www.harmlesssolutions.co.nz/

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