Should we keep sports in schools?

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#892058 9-Sep-2013 13:14

Geektastic: I was forced to play football in the Christmas term, rugger in the Easter term and cricket in the summer term (Northern hemisphere).

I detested each and every one, loathed being made to play with a passion. I was awful at all of them and hated everything associated with them. However, short of a hailstorm we were expected to play for 2 hours 5 days a week and watch the school teams playing at home on Saturday afternoons as well. We also had PE for 2 hours a week and athletics in the summer too.

The minute I had the option to give up I did so and aside from the odd bit of skiing and regular shooting I have never been near a sports field in the 30 or so years since.

I avoid all televised sports and genuinely managed not to see a single moment of the RWC or the Olympics.

So for me, if the kids want to do it then fine, but for some it is tantamount to waterboarding!

Mind you, I have no kids so my opinion is theoretical at best.

Personally, I still think (at the very least) PE should be retained as part of the curriculum.

One of my previous bosses attended one of the region's more prestigious boarding schools. Said he had to play rugby, and had to support the 1st XV in the home games (haka and everything). He absolutely hated it.
In the profession I'm involved in, I can't say there's much love for competitive sports among my colleagues. Certainly, there are a few who do actively participate at some level, but they are the minority.

I think the issue is really not so much sport itself. But, the fact the sport is simply not enjoyable (for various reasons). If sport were enjoyable, then I don't think it wouldn't be a problem.
Sports are really just games with a physical component.

It's a shame so many geeks/nerds get turned off sport - from my experience anyway. If there's one demographic that could make sport a genuinely better experience it's geeks.

Surprisingly, someone like yourself would actually be ideal for it. I know you hate sport. That's why you'd be the best type of person to "see" what the problems are.

zaptor

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#892093 9-Sep-2013 14:00

gzt:
Zaptor: Not the case with sports. It's only for the elite. If you don't make the cut, you don't play.

At school I enjoyed every sport I played despite having zero interest in any televised sport. It was just part of PE if I remember correctly. Rugby, soccer, baseball, basketball, etc. There were good players and not so good players but no exclusion at that level. Edit: Btw, this was 25 years ago : ). I had no interest really in interschool competitions.

So in all honestly I am struggling to understand why you would want to eliminate PE sports and what you would hope to gain by eliminating them.

I wouldn't eliminate PE. Just organized sport. Integrating sports into PE could still be done. But, the key difference is that everyone would participate. So, basically the same experience you had at school (I think).

If I was a PE teacher, I'd just split them into small groups of similar ability, and then make up even teams from within each group to play each other (within the same group).

A lot has changed in 25 years.

gzt:
I guess it's all sport and feeds into things like school representative sides which might be where you see the real problems.

At college (and to a much lesser degree - even at primary), every school side is effectively a representative side. Particularly at college.
College sport is not about giving every one in the team equal/fair game time, it's about winning - first and foremost. Whether it's the U14 volleyball squad, or the 1st XV - it's about winning.

gzt:
There are things like advanced math and science classes in some schools which are effectively invitation only so what is the real difference between that and invitation only sports classes?

I think that would be fine. I'm not quite sure how it would work though.
So are you saying the better athletes would have the opportunity to do more advanced PE? Remember, sports have been moved to the clubs (of which more than likely those athletes would be members of anyway)

gzt:
Don't get me wrong it's clear you have been contributing massively for a long time and I respect your opinion but I'm not sure I really understand yet exactly the kind of issues you have seen and why you believe that taking sport out of schools will solve them.

Taking organized sports out of schools (and by association sports elitism), removes one of the main obstacles in dealing with many kids who slip through the cracks. Those kids can mask serious deficiencies in their education by being good at sport.

The taxpayer funding and resourcing of sport, which doesn't actually help the majority it's intended to address.

There are more than just those two, but, if you also read my other replies hopefully that can answer your question.

darkasdes2

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#892314 9-Sep-2013 19:12

There is competition in most facets of society (work, school, social activities) not just in sport.

Sports is a way to make physical activity more enjoyable. Playing sport can me be more enjoyable than just going for a 45 minute run 4-5 times a week. It promotes hand eye co-ordination, problem solving skills, the role of tactics, skill acquisition.

For most boys, they see it as a challenge, to make it more exciting. Keeping sports in schools allows everyone to try different sports to see what they enjoy the most. That is what PE is all about.

What does the OP expect to happen during PE if there are no sports at school? Go running around the school grounds for the whole lesson?

zaptor

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#892338 9-Sep-2013 19:56

darkasdes2: There is competition in most facets of society (work, school, social activities) not just in sport.

Okay. I never said it wasn't (nor that competition was the issue).

darkasdes2:
Sports is a way to make physical activity more enjoyable. Playing sport can me be more enjoyable than just going for a 45 minute run 4-5 times a week. It promotes hand eye co-ordination, problem solving skills, the role of tactics, skill acquisition.

Agreed.

darkasdes2:
For most boys, they see it as a challenge, to make it more exciting. Keeping sports in schools allows everyone to try different sports to see what they enjoy the most. That is what PE is all about.

Yes. Boys (by and large), enjoy the physicality.
I suggest you read some of my previous replies first - I can tell you haven't. That should answer your statement.

darkasdes2:
What does the OP expect to happen during PE if there are no sports at school? Go running around the school grounds for the whole lesson?

Probably what already happens at the moment.
Sometimes a sport is incorporated into a college PE session, and it's always structured around including everyone (otherwise said PE teacher needs to look for another job - and yes, I know of an instance where a certain PE teacher took it upon himself to have less inclusive sessions - he lasted a term).

PE Sport != Organized Sport.

zaptor

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#892350 9-Sep-2013 20:22

Woolly:
I've seen school sports give some the ability to shine in running, shotput, pole volt and hammer throwing, that they would otherwise never have known about.

This could still be accomplished at a club.

Woolly:
If there is any school sport left then I wish it be the one below:

Bullrush.

Aside from the fact that I doubt it would ever get past a modern-day school board, I think bullrush would be too exclusive.
Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't have an issue if some boys wanted to do it, but it just wouldn't have a large enough appeal IMHO.

Maybe a variation on tag? Lot's of running, minimal physicality?

You could probably do something quite cool if modern day tech was integrated into it? (no laser guns though - too many mums would veto it)

Woolly

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#892435 9-Sep-2013 23:15

What problems are you trying to solve?

Should those affected by decisions have a say, who are they?

Should the question be?

Who controls Sports in school?

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#892958 10-Sep-2013 22:04

For heavens sake I don't see what the issue is.

Those that want to play sport can and do, and by and large those that don't want to don't have to. There may be some schools where it is compulsory but so far as I know other than PE sport not compulsory at most schools.

As well as a way of promoting physical activity and fitness, playing sport develops team work, eye/hand/foot coordination and a sense of fair play. It also teaches that in life there are winners and losers (something modern schooling tends to forget about) and also a loser one day can be a winner on another day.

Sport also develops leadership skills.

Sure there's always the odd bad sport, overbearing parent or coach but overall in my experience there's more pluses than minuses by having sport in schools.

The school is a good place for young people to experience and find out about various sports, some which they may never become aware of otherwise and find they enjoy. Those that take part in sport widen their circle of friends and usually make some life long friends as a result.

Frankly I cannot see any major downsides.

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zaptor

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#893004 11-Sep-2013 00:21

Technofreak: For heavens sake I don't see what the issue is.

Answers should be in the thread (the same questions have been asked/re-packaged enough times - unless you have a specific one).

Technofreak:
Those that want to play sport can and do, and by and large those that don't want to don't have to.

Strongly disagree. From experience - there are some who actually want to play sport, and can't or don't want to due to elitism.

Technofreak:
There may be some schools where it is compulsory but so far as I know other than PE sport not compulsory at most schools.

Personally I prefer compulsory - if sport were to stay. However, sports tend to be better run at clubs, and I'd argue you'd probably get more kids wanting to play in a club system.

Technofreak:
As well as a way of promoting physical activity and fitness, playing sport develops team work, eye/hand/foot coordination ...

Agreed, except for the team work point - maybe 20+ years ago, when the general acceptance was that teams were more important than the individual.

Technofreak:
and a sense of fair play. It also teaches that in life there are winners and losers (something modern schooling tends to forget about) and also a loser one day can be a winner on another day.

Oh for the values of the 50's, 60's and 70's.
If anything, I would argue that modern day sport teaches the opposite of fair play. Humility - what's that?
Losing in school sport just means looking for something else (other than the sport you suck at) to do - where you can win (like video games for instance). Remember, at college it's just about winning.
The nurturing good character story is basically non-existent in the modern age.

Technofreak:
Sport also develops leadership skills.

That's debatable - sometimes maybe. Not sure I'd agree some of the team captains I've seen over the years are necessarily good examples of leadership - unless you count "leadership" as simply being the coaches kid, or the best thug/player in the team?

Technofreak:
Sure there's always the odd bad sport, overbearing parent or coach but overall in my experience there's more pluses than minuses by having sport in schools.

Curious. Your overall experience seems to differ from mine.
What level of sport were you involved in? I'm interested.

Technofreak:
The school is a good place for young people to experience and find out about various sports, some which they may never become aware of otherwise and find they enjoy. Those that take part in sport widen their circle of friends and usually make some life long friends as a result.

Frankly I cannot see any major downsides.

Have a look at my other responses please.
Sorry, I just don't want to continually regurgitate the same answers to the same questions.

bazzer

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#893062 11-Sep-2013 08:37

zaptor:
Technofreak:
Those that want to play sport can and do, and by and large those that don't want to don't have to.

Strongly disagree. From experience - there are some who actually want to play sport, and can't or don't want to due to elitism.

Here's my question. I get the feeling that there is a specific incident that has fueled this feeling, but I don't recall reading it in this thread. Care to share?

Also, how would removing sport from school eliminate elitism from sport?

PaulBags

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#893067 11-Sep-2013 08:48

P.E. is a joke, do the curriculum, run the test, fail, go home. No-where do they actually teach kids about fitness and physical education.
Much like the rest of our education system.

zaptor

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#894140 11-Sep-2013 11:14

bazzer:
zaptor:
Technofreak:
Those that want to play sport can and do, and by and large those that don't want to don't have to.

Strongly disagree. From experience - there are some who actually want to play sport, and can't or don't want to due to elitism.

Here's my question. I get the feeling that there is a specific incident that has fueled this feeling, but I don't recall reading it in this thread. Care to share?

I mentioned it in the 2nd to last paragraph:
http://www.geekzone.co.nz/forums.asp?forumid=48&topicid=129192&page_no=4#891921

So, not a specific incident. More of a trend. A reluctant acceptance perhaps.

For parents who have the resources (at least in my locale - not low decile), they will send their boys to private/boarding school where sport is a significant instrument in keeping them "focused". The deliberately busy physical and academic schedule at most (all?) private/boarding schools is quite effective it seems. I'll leave the spoon-fed argument for someone else's thread.
With rugby, the elite local players (at least the ones who get noticed), can be offered scholarships - years 11-13.
Plus, there are a few trying for US college scholarships. Where - in theory - the acceptance criteria motivates those trying for one to achieve better scholastically (high grade point average - or whatever it's called).

The private/boarding school is model is simply too expensive to apply at a national level.
So, what about everyone else? That's where the problem lies.

Ignoring personal experience, perhaps we could look at it from another perspective.
Is it purely coincidence that the relatively few (elite) teenagers still participating in sport also just happen to be very good at it? (sure, some are better than others at regional/national level, but within their own locale they'd be considered quite capable)
Do you have to be good at organized sport just to participate? (ignoring private/boarding schools)

bazzer:
Also, how would removing sport from school eliminate elitism from sport?

Never it said it would.

It would continue at the clubs. Although, they seem to have better control on that sort of thing than schools do.
Rugby is so different from the game it was 30 years ago, it's hard to know how much better things would be. But, I believe teenagers (particularly the elite) would have much better grounding, especially with senior players around.

Edit: Removed the silver spoon reference - wrong phrase to use (can't think of a replacement either)

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#894147 11-Sep-2013 11:18

if there is a culture of elitism then there will be elitism whether it's the first 15 or something else. the extreme opposite though is tall poppy syndrome which you find in the offices (I have seen workers told off by seniors for working hard and making everyone else look bad! what the??? he was told to sit down and wait until called three times before slowly going to attend!!!)

I think if only the schools change their policies to see and bring out the best in everyone and not just a few good teachers who do that, it will make a massive difference

zaptor

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#894161 11-Sep-2013 11:42

PaulBags: P.E. is a joke, do the curriculum, run the test, fail, go home. No-where do they actually teach kids about fitness and physical education.

Yes, there is a degree of truth in that.
However, if you look a little deeper I'm not sure it's so much the curriculum per se, as it is the type of student who sits/takes the subject. Which in some ways shapes the curriculum.

Up to year 10, PE is compulsory. Beyond that, it's an optional subject.
Want to guess the demographic/student-type that leans towards PE as an option over say Physics/Calculus/Chemistry/Biology/History etc?
Then want to guess the demographic that leans towards those subjects?

Taking into account that most (all?) colleges want their NCEA stats to look good, so tend to move students into subjects that better "fit" them anyway.
If we made PE even as half as academically difficult as science or math there'd be an outcry.

PaulBags: Much like the rest of our education system.

Hmmm... don't disagree with you. But, maybe for another thread.

zaptor

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#894165 11-Sep-2013 11:50

joker97: if there is a culture of elitism then there will be elitism whether it's the first 15 or something else. the extreme opposite though is tall poppy syndrome which you find in the offices (I have seen workers told off by seniors for working hard and making everyone else look bad! what the??? he was told to sit down and wait until called three times before slowly going to attend!!!)

Yes. I have seen "reverse" elitism at youth sport level. It penalizes kids for simply being a better athlete than the rest. It's ludicrous.

joker97: I think if only the schools change their policies to see and bring out the best in everyone and not just a few good teachers who do that, it will make a massive difference

Curious. What would you suggest?

Technofreak

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#894478 11-Sep-2013 21:05

Zaptor

Curious. Your overall experience seems to differ from mine.
What level of sport were you involved in? I'm interested.

I played soccer at primary school and athletics (sprint running), then at High School, Soccer Second Eleven, First Eleven, Athletics (sprinting), and Swimming. Used to play school football in the morning then club football in the afternoon. Also dabbled in Badminton and Table Tennis. Nothing elite, all good fun.

You obviously live in a big centre, I'm guessing Auckland. The sorts of issues you go on about don't generally exist in the regions especially where I grew up.

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