What's your take on this whole no conviction rugby thing.

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MikeB4
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#1644063 2-Oct-2016 10:09

The kid was 17 at the time of the offence, there is the possibility of circumstances beyond is knowledge that affected his behaviour, hormones are a bugger to deal with and do not affect all equally. That said, do we want a positive outcome to this or vengeance?

I would rather see this young person learn from this and that includes positive interactions with his victims and then become a positive member of our society. Lets not make a fifth victim because of a feeling of not getting justice or not locking up yet another

young person in our criminal training scheme.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

Geektastic

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#1644066 2-Oct-2016 10:14

MikeB4:

The kid was 17 at the time of the offence, there is the possibility of circumstances beyond is knowledge that affected his behaviour, hormones are a bugger to deal with and do not affect all equally. That said, do we want a positive outcome to this or vengeance?

I would rather see this young person learn from this and that includes positive interactions with his victims and then become a positive member of our society. Lets not make a fifth victim because of a feeling of not getting justice or not locking up yet another

young person in our criminal training scheme.

I'd like to see some sort of deterrence factor at work so that the next person tempted to behave this way thinks "err, maybe not".

gzt

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#1644088 2-Oct-2016 11:26

Geektastic:
MikeB4:

The kid was 17 at the time of the offence, there is the possibility of circumstances beyond is knowledge that affected his behaviour, hormones are a bugger to deal with and do not affect all equally. That said, do we want a positive outcome to this or vengeance?

I would rather see this young person learn from this and that includes positive interactions with his victims and then become a positive member of our society. Lets not make a fifth victim because of a feeling of not getting justice or not locking up yet another

young person in our criminal training scheme.

I'd like to see some sort of deterrence factor at work so that the next person tempted to behave this way thinks "err, maybe not".

In other words, in relation to deterrence, what you really seek is prevention.

Pumpedd

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#1644091 2-Oct-2016 11:32

Surely all the media drama surrounding this is deterrence enough.....

gzt

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#1644100 2-Oct-2016 11:58

MikeB4:
The kid was 17 at the time of the offence, there is the possibility of circumstances beyond is knowledge that affected his behaviour, hormones are a bugger to deal with and do not affect all equally. That said, do we want a positive outcome to this or vengeance?

At three in the morning on Wakefield St, alcohol would have been a big factor in the offending.

It surprises me that these factors have not been raised in the discussion. Alcohol does not lead to 17 year olds making better decisions.

Unfortunately a lot of our sport actively and commercially promotes consumption at the top level:

Stuff (misleading headline): [Graham] Lowe said what he found most startling during the review was evidence of the "brainwashing" effect exposure to alcohol advertising and sponsorship in sport had on children.

"The issue is the in your face big time sport where the heroes of the young are playing.

"That's where the kids are influenced by it."

Lowe and others really stuck their necks out to make this point.

The outcome of the review was a recommendation to government that alcohol advertising and sponsorship of sport should end.

NZ Rugby as usual is showing no direction or interest on the issue, so it probably will be government making the move in the end.

MikeB4

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#1644101 2-Oct-2016 12:06

gzt:
MikeB4:

The kid was 17 at the time of the offence, there is the possibility of circumstances beyond is knowledge that affected his behaviour, hormones are a bugger to deal with and do not affect all equally. That said, do we want a positive outcome to this or vengeance?

At three in the morning on Wakefield St, alcohol would have been a big factor in the offending. It surprises me that these factors have not been raised in the discussion. Alcohol does not lead to 17 year olds making better decisions.

Unfortunately a lot of our sport actively and commercially promotes consumption at the top level:

Stuff (misleading headline):

[Graham] Lowe said what he found most startling during the review was evidence of the "brainwashing" effect exposure to alcohol advertising and sponsorship in sport had on children.

"The issue is the in your face big time sport where the heroes of the young are playing.

"That's where the kids are influenced by it."

Lowe and others really stuck their necks out to make this point.

The outcome of the review was a recommendation to government that alcohol advertising and sponsorship of sport should end.

NZ Rugby as usual is showing no direction or interest on the issue, so it probably will be government making the move in the end.

Our management of alcohol is NZ is abysmal, this needs urgent attention not just by Government but as a people we need to address how this is educated and managed.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

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Geektastic

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#1644125 2-Oct-2016 13:14

gzt:
MikeB4:

The kid was 17 at the time of the offence, there is the possibility of circumstances beyond is knowledge that affected his behaviour, hormones are a bugger to deal with and do not affect all equally. That said, do we want a positive outcome to this or vengeance?

At three in the morning on Wakefield St, alcohol would have been a big factor in the offending.

It surprises me that these factors have not been raised in the discussion. Alcohol does not lead to 17 year olds making better decisions.

Unfortunately a lot of our sport actively and commercially promotes consumption at the top level:

Stuff (misleading headline): [Graham] Lowe said what he found most startling during the review was evidence of the "brainwashing" effect exposure to alcohol advertising and sponsorship in sport had on children.

"The issue is the in your face big time sport where the heroes of the young are playing.

"That's where the kids are influenced by it."

Lowe and others really stuck their necks out to make this point.

The outcome of the review was a recommendation to government that alcohol advertising and sponsorship of sport should end.

NZ Rugby as usual is showing no direction or interest on the issue, so it probably will be government making the move in the end.

Isn't it illegal to drink at 17?

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#1644128 2-Oct-2016 13:19

Geektastic:

<snip>

Isn't it illegal to drink at 17?

Under the Sale & Supply of Alcohol Act the minimum legal age for the purchase of alcohol in New Zealand is 18 years.
New Zealand has no minimum legal drinking age.
In other words, although those under 18 are unable to legally purchase alcohol themselves, they are legally permitted to consume alcohol.

Alcohol – laws and penalties

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gzt

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#1644300 2-Oct-2016 18:26

Yep. For the most part it is illegal to serve/provide alcohol to anyone under 18. Also illegal in a restaurant type setting unless an actual legal parent is present. Other than that, it is parental responsibility at home. I'm sure in many situations it's just easier to tell the kids it is illegal until they turn 18. ; ).

gzt

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#1644323 2-Oct-2016 19:41

@michael001

I missed that. That is an abuse of the quote mechanism and makes a mockery of the basis of any ongoing discussion.

If you want to say something like that, that is one thing, but to use the quote mechanism for misattribution that is totally wrong and the misattribution can propagate through the thread.

I suggest you apologise to networkn and the community and ask the mods to remove each instance of the made up quote from the thread.

Dratsab

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#1644452 2-Oct-2016 22:54

gzt: Yep. For the most part it is illegal to serve/provide alcohol to anyone under 18. Also illegal in a restaurant type setting unless an actual legal parent is present. Other than that, it is parental responsibility at home. I'm sure in many situations it's just easier to tell the kids it is illegal until they turn 18. ; ).

Parent or guardian.

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gzt

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#1644474 3-Oct-2016 06:13

This is true, but not guardian in the informal sense of another adult or family member. Must be a court appointed guardian.

dickytim

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#1644476 3-Oct-2016 06:35

Front page of the Herald this morning a man beat his wife with a hammer and was discharged without conviction because the punishment would have been disproportionate to the crime, however it was over turned and the new judge commented that the first judge did not take into consideration how serious the crime was.

Where is justice for the victim in all this?

The wowsers on here, you know who you are, they are going to bleat about it being revenge and basically no one should go to prison but isn't enough, enough?

Do the crime do the time.

tdgeek

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#1644479 3-Oct-2016 07:25

dickytim:

Front page of the Herald this morning a man beat his wife with a hammer and was discharged without conviction because the punishment would have been disproportionate to the crime, however it was over turned and the new judge commented that the first judge did not take into consideration how serious the crime was.

Where is justice for the victim in all this?

The wowsers on here, you know who you are, they are going to bleat about it being revenge and basically no one should go to prison but isn't enough, enough?

Do the crime do the time.

Agree, the Heralds article shows a problematic issue with convicting, but the appeal is the check on that. Time could be prison, home detention, or other penalties, but the bottom line is a fair punishment.

MikeB4

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#1644482 3-Oct-2016 07:49

dickytim:
Front page of the Herald this morning a man beat his wife with a hammer and was discharged without conviction because the punishment would have been disproportionate to the crime, however it was over turned and the new judge commented that the first judge did not take into consideration how serious the crime was.

Where is justice for the victim in all this?

The wowsers on here, you know who you are, they are going to bleat about it being revenge and basically no one should go to prison but isn't enough, enough?

Do the crime do the time.

Of course every case is identical and every outcome should be the same.

Try to debate without the insults would be good yes?

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

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