Does this US Department of Transportation enforcement notice apply to NZers too?

Forums › Travel (planes, train, cruise) › Does this US Department of Transportation enforcement notice apply to NZers too?

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#2461257 14-Apr-2020 17:23

itxtme:

There are thousands of examples of businesses that rely on forward bookings for cash flow. The question is why are some airlines needing bail outs immediately and others not? I suggest we are looking at an airline that has not prepared for a rainy day, granted nobody foresaw how rainy it was going to get. I havent seen the latest financials for them but 2018/19 saw 150+% of free cash dividends paid out, plus share buy backs. The likes of Qantas have generated a decent war chest comparably and apparently don't need an immediate bail out, so have some behaved a little more recklessly?

Equally what is your comment to those who have lost jobs or income and want their money back for a service they did not receive? They are entitled to it, so whats is your argument for misleading behaviour by the airline?

Air NZ have a $900m loan facility with the government and have not drawn this down at this point. The fact Air NZ had $1 billion in cash puts them in a relatively strong place for their size - Qantas had $1.9 billion in cash but immediately had to take out a $1.05 billion loan which they drew down in late March. Qantas have stood down 2/3 of their staff and a number of these are on unpaid leave with estimates that cash will last them somewhere between 7-11 months.

Air NZ did not pay down a dividend, that was cancelled as part of the loan facility deal.

I think you're somehow confused and think I'm defending the airlines - I'm not. I'm merely pointing out the facts, and the fact that it's not just Air NZ who are trying their best not to pay out refunds. If you'd read anything I've written across multiple platforms you'd know I've been highly critical of Air NZ's approach and already helped a number of people with their refunds.

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#2461472 14-Apr-2020 22:45

In fairness the Qantas loan was based on increasing liquidity and is against 4 planes that they owned. I am not sure what the Air NZ balance sheet looks like and if they could loan against their own assets but no need really when your major share holder can loan 900m. I wasnt trying to suggest that Qantas was an amazing airline just that they had been a lot more cautious in the last few years as far as dividends etc went and paying down debt, compared to many other airlines Virgin Australia for example who are starting to squeal.

I am certainly not questioning your integrity, I am sure you have passed on much needed advice during this time as you have said, and as you have here in the past. I have no real affinity to aviation, and so on an ethical level find it hard to watch them say no to refunding when in fact, they are legislatively required to do so as per the OP's original question.

If you agree that DOT is in play here, another interesting question is how does that cross over with the Fair Trading Act in the sense of it being misleading if told [as has been reported] that you can only get a credit. Another thing to consider is the likes of Singapore Air, Lufthansa and many more who are adding value to their vouchers and encouraging an opt-in behaviour which to me seems fairer.

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#2461485 15-Apr-2020 00:24

Looks like the Commerce Commission is set to make some guidance announcement today for consumers and businesses about rights and obligations relating to disrupted travel and events.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/money/120998329/coronavirus-air-new-zealand-credits-spark-complaints-to-commerce-commission

Our family was supposed to be in Hawaii this week. Have about $3000 dollars in credit. We probably looking to use this to holiday in NZ sometime over the next 12 months instead.

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#2461606 15-Apr-2020 08:39

kiwiharry:

Looks like the Commerce Commission is set to make some guidance announcement today for consumers and businesses about rights and obligations relating to disrupted travel and events.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/money/120998329/coronavirus-air-new-zealand-credits-spark-complaints-to-commerce-commission

Our family was supposed to be in Hawaii this week. Have about $3000 dollars in credit. We probably looking to use this to holiday in NZ sometime over the next 12 months instead.

The Commerce Commission aren't going to do anything except explain the current laws and rules. Air New Zealand are not breaking any laws with their processes.

Every time people purchase a ticket they have the option of making it refundable - if you don't you are performing your own risk analysis and deciding whether a refundable fare makes sense or not. It's just like people who don't take out travel insurance (or even insurance in general). The fare rules are very clear.

As for your situation if you want the refund all you have to do is call Air NZ. The woman in the Stuff article is in exactly the same situation as she is quite possibly flying NZ metal via LAX and entitled to a refund under DOT rules that have existed since 2012.

kiwiharry

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#2461617 15-Apr-2020 09:03

sbiddle:
kiwiharry:

Looks like the Commerce Commission is set to make some guidance announcement today for consumers and businesses about rights and obligations relating to disrupted travel and events.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/money/120998329/coronavirus-air-new-zealand-credits-spark-complaints-to-commerce-commission

Our family was supposed to be in Hawaii this week. Have about $3000 dollars in credit. We probably looking to use this to holiday in NZ sometime over the next 12 months instead.

The Commerce Commission aren't going to do anything except explain the current laws and rules. Air New Zealand are not breaking any laws with their processes.

Every time people purchase a ticket they have the option of making it refundable - if you don't you are performing your own risk analysis and deciding whether a refundable fare makes sense or not. It's just like people who don't take out travel insurance (or even insurance in general). The fare rules are very clear.

As for your situation if you want the refund all you have to do is call Air NZ. The woman in the Stuff article is in exactly the same situation as she is quite possibly flying NZ metal via LAX and entitled to a refund under DOT rules that have existed since 2012.

Yes I understand that what the Commerce Commission will announce is only an explanation of current laws and rules.

Just for the record, I've not tried to pursue a refund.

Maybe my post on the Chargeback thread is a better reflection on this topic. https://www.geekzone.co.nz/forums.asp?forumid=179&topicid=269694&page_no=3#2453533

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#2461626 15-Apr-2020 09:12

sbiddle:

Every time people purchase a ticket they have the option of making it refundable - if you don't you are performing your own risk analysis and deciding whether a refundable fare makes sense or not. It's just like people who don't take out travel insurance (or even insurance in general). The fare rules are very clear.

I would agree with this in most circumstances. But in THIS circumstance neither Air NZ nor customers considered a Global pandemic shutting down travel at short notice. Don’t forget, neither AirNZ nor the customers chose to cancel the flights.

AirNZ is using fare rules to contract out of refunds, and when they are compelled to refund they aren’t making it easy (noting they are under considerable levels of stress, by which I mean call volumes and changing conditions, so excusable). Customers are also behaving badly - freaking out about flights in September, as per this thread, doesn’t help anyone - would have been better to take a month or two of deep breathing and relax.

Having said all this, AirNZ needs to act consistently, affected customers need to calm down and let Air NZ deal with immediate cases now and later cases later.

I am very confident AirNZ is doing the very best it can to balance the needs of itself and its customers. We need AirNZ and it would be much worse if the airline folded - that would probably be a bigger hit on the economy than the lockdown is going to be. People should be happy with credits, that helps the big picture, and I think if you can afford an overseas holiday you can afford it. I was pulled up, quite rightly, for a sarcastic comment that someone didn’t get insurance or purchase a refundable ticket - and it doesn’t help, sbiddle, to make a judgemental comment like yours. Understanding of insurance goes over the head of a large percentage of the population.

Sum of all this - everyone should just calm down.

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#2461682 15-Apr-2020 10:19

BlinkyBill:

Customers are also behaving badly - freaking out about flights in September, as per this thread, doesn’t help anyone - would have been better to take a month or two of deep breathing and relax.

Erm, I beg your pardon? Get off your judgemental and condescending horse. I am far from freaking out or "behaving badly" thank you very much, just trying to understand the bounds of the position I will be in so that when I get there I am educated and can make the right decisions.

BlinkyBill:

Having said all this, AirNZ needs to act consistently, affected customers need to calm down and let Air NZ deal with immediate cases now and later cases later....

(snip)

Sum of all this - everyone should just calm down.

I have not contacted Air New Zealand as I am fully aware that my flight is too far away to contact them about right now. As I said before, I am just trying to understand my rights once it gets to that point. That is what this forum is for.

Maybe take your own advice and try some deep breathing and relax.

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#2462108 15-Apr-2020 18:59

Commerce Commission pointers released this afternoon (not specifically for travel) https://comcom.govt.nz/__data/assets/pdf_file/0019/214750/COVID-19-Disrupted-travel-events-and-trade-guidance-15-April-2020.pdf

Ruphus

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#2470570 24-Apr-2020 21:05

As per the article. AirNZ to refund tickets for US flights.

..snip..

An Air New Zealand spokeswoman said that while all customers who had their flight cancelled were being offered a credit in the first instance, the airline was providing a refund where local legislation required one to be made available.

"In the example of the US, as per US DOT [Department of Transportation] regulations, customers who had booked to travel on a flight to or from the US are entitled to a full refund should a credit not be suitable," she said.

One Air New Zealand passenger was initially told she would get a credit for $9000 worth of flights booked to San Francisco, which the airline cancelled. Three days ago, she contacted Air New Zealand and asked for a refund, quoting the refund policy on the US Department of Transportation website.

"This morning the refund was credited back to my credit card," she said.

Every ticket bought for an Air New Zealand flight to and from the US should be refunded as a result of cancellations due to the coronavirus, said Consumer NZ head of research Jessica Wilson.

"We've been in contact with the US Department of Transportation about this. It doesn't matter where you bought the ticket, it's a fact of the flight being the US.

"The refund obligation applies to all ticketed passengers on flights to and from the US, regardless of where the individual purchased their ticket or their citizenship."

Air New Zealand told Consumer NZ that customers who had booked to travel on a flight to or from the US were entitled to a full refund, should a credit not be suitable, she said.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/money/121240020/coronavirus-air-nz-obliged-to-refund-us-flights-some-eu-tickets-for-kiwis-consumer-nz

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#2481164 11-May-2020 13:48

itxtme:

In fairness the Qantas loan was based on increasing liquidity and is against 4 planes that they owned. I am not sure what the Air NZ balance sheet looks like and if they could loan against their own assets but no need really when your major share holder can loan 900m. I wasnt trying to suggest that Qantas was an amazing airline just that they had been a lot more cautious in the last few years as far as dividends etc went and paying down debt, compared to many other airlines Virgin Australia for example who are starting to squeal.

Virgin Australia is in Administration already, despite not actually being insolvent (yet). Air NZ's loan from the government actually is secured against their aircraft as well.

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#2486630 19-May-2020 20:30

So if you have, say, a $10,000 credit, how many domestic flights would you need to take to use that if there are no Air NZ international flights?

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#2488641 21-May-2020 11:40

I had flights booked WGN-AKL-YVR-LAX-AKL-WGN which were cancelled.

Initially Air NZ refused a refund. Twice.

I made an online complaint via the US DOT website (very easy to do) and yesterday received notice from Air NZ that they will be paying a full refund....

The DOT state that any flight that touches down in the USA or territories is covered by their rules, regardless of where it was booked, what currency was used to pay for it etc etc. Clearly they have the heft to ensure compliance with their view of the world, too!

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#2491501 26-May-2020 08:20

Air NZ has extended its reduced international schedule through to 31/08.

Can I get a view on this? Our original booking included flight NZ6, the earlier of two AKL - LAX flights originally scheduled for the day of our booking.

Under the new schedule, this flight does not exist, only the later NZ3.

Does this mean Air NZ have effectively "cancelled" our flight and we would therefore be eligible for a refund, or can they force "reschedule" us onto the other flight (which is 2 hours later than the original, if it matters).

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#2491516 26-May-2020 08:59

You bought flights for September, according to your first post. 31/8 is 31st August, which is prior to September. So no, they have not cancelled your flight, based in the information provided in your first and most recent posts.

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#2491579 26-May-2020 09:51

BlinkyBill:

You bought flights for September, according to your first post. 31/8 is 31st August, which is prior to September. So no, they have not cancelled your flight, based in the information provided in your first and most recent posts.

Oh Blinky, you do love to be a pedant don't you. My flight out is the end of August, returning to NZ mid September. It wasn't relevant to the original post to be so exact.

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