New Zealanders on MH370

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#1002109 10-Mar-2014 13:50

Geektastic:

If they ARE tracked in real time, why are we not reading that they knew EXACTLY where it was when it disappeared as opposed to reading things like "lose contact somewhere off Vietnam" and "may have turned back"?!

The 'realtime' ADSB info tx'd by aircraft is for air-air avoidance over watermass or land where there are no SITA ground stations. The data FR24 uses is from people like myself, At home capturing that data and sending it to a central point for display. ATC have different methods of this. Like us, they are somewhat blind over large water masses and rely on:

Traditional Radar (rotating statings pinging off the transponders)
MLAT - multi ground stations calculating position from 4+ points and delay in the replies
FAA ASDI data, which is from HF datapackets or sat uplink with bundled data bursts with previous active flight information.
VHF ACARS downlink - short message data
Voice Comms/Handover on HF

The difficulty with this case, is it was over short water. Between 2 countries now not wanting to take responsibility for being the last to hear from it it may seem. It was very close to the ATC boundy for handover to the destination. But they had not made contact themselves (pilots) as part of the operational process, and at the same time the departure ATC are all 'we assumed they were fine' since they had not heard from them leaving their boundries.

Then comes the starting to search over land cause 'thats where it would be by now' as apposed to looking at the guys saying 'err.. it may not be an official source but we lost contact with it while seeing a plane 20mins ahead just fine at this spot'

Major cluster. Chinese airports 'no, its OK they landed here..' or not. "it may be crashed over the coast cause its 2hrs since it left" or not.. Then changing their stories with the actual last time contacting via VHF/HF

ScuL

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#1002110 10-Mar-2014 13:50

This is a terrible tragedy. I'm a frequent flyer and flying enthusiast and I've known Malaysian to be a highly reputable and safe airline. Wouldn't have expected this in a million years, but hey, what has happened is anything but ordinary.

Without trying to add to speculation, the knowledge I have about airline systems show two very big anomalies in this particular instance:
1) if a plane were to be hijacked or deviated from course both ACARS as well as radar would show changing patterns in flight level (altitude) as well as geographical position. none of this happened, it simply went "off the radar" in a flash whilst at FL350 (35.000ft)
2) if a plane were to have a technical issue you would again see patterns indicating this in ACARS and radar readings as the plane descended in an aggravated manner.

so there are 2 possible series of events that match this scenario
A) the plane disintegrated whilst @ cruising speed & altitude (a brutal and painful yet quick end for all pax & crew on board)
this could be either due to structural failure, uncontrolled decompression or an explosion
B) the plane was hijacked and whoever did so was able to switch off all tracking devices, beacons & transmitters just as the aircraft left Malaysian aircraft radar space (unlikely)

Haere taka mua, taka muri; kaua e wha.

Kyanar

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#1002154 10-Mar-2014 15:45

coolcat21: Another strange discovery is that about 3 or 4 people in the flight manifest were not actually on that flight. They're safe and alive right now. Their passports were stolen sometimes back and they have reported it.

So why MA allowed the people who used it to get through/board is mystery

The airline has no way to tell if a passport is stolen. Only a government has that ability, and Interpol has already had a go at governments such as Malaysia that don't bother checking.

blakamin:
Geektastic:

If they ARE tracked in real time, why are we not reading that they knew EXACTLY where it was when it disappeared as opposed to reading things like "lose contact somewhere off Vietnam" and "may have turned back"?!

Because that's the media getting information from a variety of sources and most of them are wrong. For the first 2 days they were saying the flight had been in the air for 2 hours, which every flight tracker in the world knew to be wrong and tried to correct...
Medias motto of "never let anything get in the way of a good story" seems to spring to mind.
Condolences to all the families of those missing.

And what about the story today in the paper where John Key has a go at the media for one of the NZ families finding out their family member was on the missing flight from a journalist before the MFAT could get to them to break the news? Gotta admit, it's not often I agree with John Key but he's definitely in the right here - that's pretty low. All in the pursuit of ratings.

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#1002196 10-Mar-2014 16:48

Kyanar:
coolcat21: Another strange discovery is that about 3 or 4 people in the flight manifest were not actually on that flight. They're safe and alive right now. Their passports were stolen sometimes back and they have reported it.

So why MA allowed the people who used it to get through/board is mystery

The airline has no way to tell if a passport is stolen. Only a government has that ability, and Interpol has already had a go at governments such as Malaysia that don't bother checking.

blakamin:
Geektastic:

If they ARE tracked in real time, why are we not reading that they knew EXACTLY where it was when it disappeared as opposed to reading things like "lose contact somewhere off Vietnam" and "may have turned back"?!

Because that's the media getting information from a variety of sources and most of them are wrong. For the first 2 days they were saying the flight had been in the air for 2 hours, which every flight tracker in the world knew to be wrong and tried to correct...
Medias motto of "never let anything get in the way of a good story" seems to spring to mind.
Condolences to all the families of those missing.

And what about the story today in the paper where John Key has a go at the media for one of the NZ families finding out their family member was on the missing flight from a journalist before the MFAT could get to them to break the news? Gotta admit, it's not often I agree with John Key but he's definitely in the right here - that's pretty low. All in the pursuit of ratings.

I often agree with Mr Key - and like you, I certainly do here.

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#1002279 10-Mar-2014 19:02

my wife suggested something - use the international geek community to help "search"

let's say a satellite takes a super high resolution picture of the seas (no privacy/international law issue right?) which is opened to the public to review.

everyone in the world can allocate themselves a random coordinate to look, soon everyone will have "searched" the seas?

blakamin

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#1002284 10-Mar-2014 19:09

Kyanar:
And what about the story today in the paper where John Key has a go at the media for one of the NZ families finding out their family member was on the missing flight from a journalist before the MFAT could get to them to break the news? Gotta admit, it's not often I agree with John Key but he's definitely in the right here - that's pretty low. All in the pursuit of ratings.

Jeez, I missed that... That's so far beyond wrong!

Did you see rupert murdochs tweet?

"777crash confirms jihadists turning to make trouble for China. Chance for US to make common cause, befriend China while Russia bullies."

Seriously???
The media have to GTFO and STFU!

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#1002358 10-Mar-2014 20:37

I thought planes have indestructible locator beacons in the event of a crash.

These things never seem to work though (assuming they have them).

I recall the french plane took ages to locate but could be wrong.

Oblivian

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#1002377 10-Mar-2014 20:50

surfisup1000: I thought planes have indestructible locator beacons in the event of a crash.

These things never seem to work though (assuming they have them).

I recall the french plane took ages to locate but could be wrong.

As mentioned here. The flight data recorder has a locator on it, with battery good for only matter of a week. Select sonar frequency And not efficient if trapped in wreckage or down a cavern harder to find

Fred99

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#1002380 10-Mar-2014 20:53

blakamin:
Did you see rupert murdochs tweet?

"777crash confirms jihadists turning to make trouble for China. Chance for US to make common cause, befriend China while Russia bullies."

I've seen the tweet now.
Others have expressed in words (unprintable here) what I think about that malevolent swine.
If anything, it goes to show that "karma" is a myth - or he'd have suffered a painful death from something extremely nasty many decades ago.

turnin

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#1002450 10-Mar-2014 22:15

I don't understand how in 2014 two people could board that plane on stolen passports, I'm not suggesting they were involved in the planes disappearance but with all of the stringent global measures taken to prevent terrorism including the recording of all internet data , surely every airport can check each passengers passport before putting people on a plane !
Does Kuala Lumpur not have a single database administrator ?

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#1002451 10-Mar-2014 22:23

top human trafficking country in the world - what do you think?

edit supporting google added

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#1002511 10-Mar-2014 23:58

Oblivian:
surfisup1000: I thought planes have indestructible locator beacons in the event of a crash.

These things never seem to work though (assuming they have them).

I recall the french plane took ages to locate but could be wrong.

As mentioned here. The flight data recorder has a locator on it, with battery good for only matter of a week. Select sonar frequency And not efficient if trapped in wreckage or down a cavern harder to find

It wouldn't be hard to build some kind of self-releasing locator buoy if someone really put their mind to it, I am sure.

The ones installed in private small planes are activated by impact, for example - do they have those in jets?

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#1002513 10-Mar-2014 23:59

turnin: I don't understand how in 2014 two people could board that plane on stolen passports, I'm not suggesting they were involved in the planes disappearance but with all of the stringent global measures taken to prevent terrorism including the recording of all internet data , surely every airport can check each passengers passport before putting people on a plane !
Does Kuala Lumpur not have a single database administrator ?

I believe that Interpol are the only organisation that can see the global 'lost passport list'.

However with e-passports it should surely be possible to cancel one like cancelling a credit card?

nakedmolerat

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#1002521 11-Mar-2014 00:38

joker97: top human trafficking country in the world - what do you think?

edit supporting google added

What a stupid statement. Do you even read your own search result first?

Source: Not For Sale , humantrafficking.com

Kyanar

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#1002543 11-Mar-2014 08:31

Geektastic:
turnin: I don't understand how in 2014 two people could board that plane on stolen passports, I'm not suggesting they were involved in the planes disappearance but with all of the stringent global measures taken to prevent terrorism including the recording of all internet data , surely every airport can check each passengers passport before putting people on a plane !
Does Kuala Lumpur not have a single database administrator ?

I believe that Interpol are the only organisation that can see the global 'lost passport list'.

However with e-passports it should surely be possible to cancel one like cancelling a credit card?

Any member country's police force can access the database too. A lot of countries simply don't check.

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