New centrist green party?

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#2174411 7-Feb-2019 13:23

Rikkitic:

@Darude34: This is my thread. I don't want it to go the way the other one did. Your behaviour is very close to trolling. Ease up or I will ask @freitasm to lock this. Debate is one thing. What you are doing is just sowing discord. If you have a serious point to make, then make it. Quit the attacks and insults. This is a forum for a serious exchange of views. What you are doing doesn't qualify.

Sorry for my part in that but I find it very difficult to let some statements just slide by. I was about to quote Darude's previous post where he confirms I was correct about his lifestyle, but I'll leave it - it's on page 12 of the cannabis thread if anyone is interested.

As I said several pages ago, I think there is plenty of opportunity for a centrist green party - there are plenty of those who care greatly about our environment but don't want a jot of left-wing politics. I would certainly consider giving my party vote to such a party

Random example (not up to the Kermadec sanctuary one which is a real blinder) - emission standards of vehicles. When are we going to get serious on these and get some of the smoky old deathtraps off our roads? The Greens won't touch this because it may hurt the poor.

GV27

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#2174418 7-Feb-2019 13:38

shk292:

Think through the practicalities of that. I work from 8:00 to about 4:30. So, I'd need to be out my front door by 5:26am (according to Google maps), ie, out of bed by 4:55am to get ready. Then, having done my day's work, I'd get home at 6:45 pm. Then I need to think about spending time with my kids, helping with homework etc, cooking dinner - all those things.

I just want to add I live 21km from work and to arrive at work by 7am, I'd have to be out the front door and on a bus by 5:20am. So about as long to go almost half the distance.

I live well within Auckland's city limits, I can see the harbour bridge from my house. I'm not WASPING it up on a lifestyle block in the middle of nowhere. But to just stop driving and take the car each day is an hour longer extra, each way.

At a professional rate, this is an extra $500 a day of dead-weight loss; with a significant extra toll on personal lives and mental health. Broad sweeping statements about emissions and global warming do not change the fact that these costs are real.

Rikkitic

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#2174419 7-Feb-2019 13:45

shk292:

As I said several pages ago, I think there is plenty of opportunity for a centrist green party - there are plenty of those who care greatly about our environment but don't want a jot of left-wing politics. I would certainly consider giving my party vote to such a party

Random example (not up to the Kermadec sanctuary one which is a real blinder) - emission standards of vehicles. When are we going to get serious on these and get some of the smoky old deathtraps off our roads? The Greens won't touch this because it may hurt the poor.

I tend to take a more holistic approach to questions like this. If upgrading the fleet imposes unacceptable hardship on a segment of the population, there need to be policies to fix that. Higher minimum incomes might be one possibility. Some form of subsidy for more efficient vehicles might be another. Better public transport could also help. I'm not suggesting any of these would solve the problem in themselves, just shooting some quick examples off the top of my head. I think this kind of thing requires a broader approach than just looking at vehicle emissions in isolation.

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Rikkitic

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#2174420 7-Feb-2019 13:50

GV27:

At a professional rate, this is an extra $500 a day of dead-weight loss; with a significant extra toll on personal lives and mental health. Broad sweeping statements about emissions and global warming do not change the fact that these costs are real.

And that is why some kind of political solution is needed. This kind of thing cannot be solved on an individual level. Although I personally don't have a huge problem with social justice policies, I recognise that a more neutral environmental party could help garner greater support for important measures that might benefit us all. I would certainly have no problem with that, and might even vote for such a party at some point.

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

GV27

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#2174428 7-Feb-2019 14:03

Rikkitic:

GV27:

At a professional rate, this is an extra $500 a day of dead-weight loss; with a significant extra toll on personal lives and mental health. Broad sweeping statements about emissions and global warming do not change the fact that these costs are real.

And that is why some kind of political solution is needed. This kind of thing cannot be solved on an individual level. Although I personally don't have a huge problem with social justice policies, I recognise that a more neutral environmental party could help garner greater support for important measures that might benefit us all. I would certainly have no problem with that, and might even vote for such a party at some point.

Well Rikkitic, because I take an interest in this, you'll be disappointed to hear the Light Rail case study for Auckland is already significantly overdue (it was meant to be ready at the end of last year).

We don't have a prayer if stuff like this can just disappear off the radar with no cage rattling.

tdgeek

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#2174431 7-Feb-2019 14:11

Ideally all parties should have a social, and an environmental policy. Both are different. Labour is bent towards social outcomes, National will manage that to a much lesser degree, much as Labour would manage business issues to a much lesser degree

Both major parties should have an environmental policy, and to be relevant at voting time they do, but the Greens wield a big stick, and that's important. But Greens need to keep away from mainstream politics, they need to be environmentally focussed, and in todays world they are here long term. But they need to get real at times. We cannot have more hydro in NZ, to get us over the line with 100% renewable energy, as some plants and wildlife will be affected. I just don't get that at all. Its like there is a rulebook thou we shalt not go against. 100% renewable is a hell of a target, that we can achieve but never will with this attitude. While its fine to cease adding new exploration in Taranaki, if we are not allowed to become 100% renewable, we will need to get the fossil fuels out and burn them instead. If they used sp0em reality, you can hafv both. 100% renewable and no new exploration, this is compatible. Having no 100% renewables and no new exploration is not compatible

gzt

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#2174435 7-Feb-2019 14:17

The public transport vs personal transport debate in this topic was kind of silly. Where PT is provided and adequate people tend to use it. I certainly know people who make a purely rational and financial choice to avoid car ownership because of public transport provision. The Auckland train system has been excellent in that aspect. Young people coming into the workforce etc are now making housing rental and investment choices based on that and winning vs car use.

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Rikkitic

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#2174437 7-Feb-2019 14:18

GV27:

Well Rikkitic, because I take an interest in this, you'll be disappointed to hear the Light Rail case study for Auckland is already significantly overdue (it was meant to be ready at the end of last year).

We don't have a prayer if stuff like this can just disappear off the radar with no cage rattling.

So what has happened to it? Do you know?

And yes, I am disappointed. I don't know if light rail is the right answer to anything here, but coming from Europe I have a high regard for trams.

Apart from that, we just don't seem to be very good at tackling large-scale projects for some reason. The Christchurch earthquakes happened on National's watch and as far as I know there are still people waiting for settlements from EQC. Japan, which had a far bigger disaster, settled all that kind of thing years ago. We seem to have a real problem with basic administrative competency, wherever on the political spectrum it falls. Or am I being horribly unfair?

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tdgeek

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#2174469 7-Feb-2019 14:39

On a culture basis its fine. People rally round and help others, JA flicked the people in nelson 20k today and will help with any other gaps, thats all good. Nats will have done the same. But when we have a big project, we seem to import trees worth of paper to write memos on, rent out every office to hold meetings on and do what we can to keep bureacracy alive. This is probably why we have low unemployment :-) We cannot possible tell anyone, we are in trouble, we have to do this, we all need to grin and bear it for a while then its sorted. Because people might not like us or vote for us. (voting from the very top to the smallest local council, or any local authority)

GV27

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#2174484 7-Feb-2019 15:23

Rikkitic:

So what has happened to it? Do you know?

And yes, I am disappointed. I don't know if light rail is the right answer to anything here, but coming from Europe I have a high regard for trams.

Currently still waiting for NZTA to finish drafting it. You can add this to the list of vital Auckland public transport projects needlessly delayed by Wellington, I suspect.

freitasm

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#2174485 7-Feb-2019 15:24

Someone has been banned today. Discussion doesn't need to involve trolling or twisted words.

Fred99

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#2174779 8-Feb-2019 08:31

Perhaps this article hints at why a true "blue-green" coalition seems unlikely:

If property rights were real climate destroying companies would be sued out-of existence

tdgeek

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#2174816 8-Feb-2019 08:46

Fred99:

Perhaps this article hints at why a true "blue-green" coalition seems unlikely:

If property rights were real climate destroying companies would be sued out-of existence

Yes, there is a conflict between business and the environment. Climate Change is a biggie and getting bigger. It will soon become the biggest talking point by the voting public, if it isn't already. As this grows, any political party needs to do what they do best, buy votes. If they don't buy votes they don't govern

In NZ's case, say CC continues to grow as a concern, Greens become more viable and vocal, Labour enacts more and more eco policies, National would have to change, as theoretically, the weight of climate change may make getting back to Govt extremely difficult, as the Green desire of more and more Kiwis takes effect, and as older voters pass on, replaced by more modern voters, a bigger mix of green concerned voters in the voting pot. Helped by Labour being more centrist and more business friendly. I have no doubt that National cannot be bothered with green policies, but if they want to govern regularly, they need to, should my opinion of a population that is greener and greener falls into place. The pity is any green change is merely reactionary and for a reason other than being environmentally concerned.

NZF is a big part of this as they are the kingmaker party for the forseeable future

Fred99

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#2175039 8-Feb-2019 13:23

tdgeek:

I have no doubt that National cannot be bothered with green policies,

Oh yes they can... just not in the way you think.

A quick look at Judith Collin's twitter feed, much of it seems to be her own tweets in favour of the industry / or retweeting stuff she's been reading from oil/gas industry lobbyists.

So yes - she's bothered by green policies - even if I doubt someone of her ilk would have the mental capacity to "get with" green policies.

Dingbatt

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#2175056 8-Feb-2019 13:53

Fred99: green policies - even if I doubt someone of her ilk would have the mental capacity to "get with" green policies.

I think you are confusing mental capacity with political beliefs. Or are you saying anyone who doesn’t agree with your POV is mentally deficient?

“We’ve arranged a society based on science and technology, in which nobody understands anything about science technology. Carl Sagan 1996

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