Gays and Marriage

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#666066 2-Aug-2012 12:12

kyhwana2:
mattRSK: I do not support the gay marriage bill. Simply because I believe that it is not normal.

Why do you think it's not normal?

My understanding of marriage is that it is about starting a family. Same sex couples biologically can not have children.

kyhwana2

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#666067 2-Aug-2012 12:12

BraaiGuy:

5- Normal? Ummm lets leave it just there. Our human bodies were not designed in that way, so cant agree with u there.

The human body wasn't "designed" (Human bodies aren't designed, they evolved) for lots of things, yet we do lots of things to them that aren't "normal".

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#666068 2-Aug-2012 12:12

mattRSK:
kyhwana2:
mattRSK: I do not support the gay marriage bill. Simply because I believe that it is not normal.

Why do you think it's not normal?

My understanding of marriage is that it is about starting a family. Same sex couples biologically can not have children.

We've been over this and you're wrong.

(You're wrong because people who don't plan on having kids get married as well as people who can't have kids too)

mattRSK

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#666071 2-Aug-2012 12:14

kyhwana2:
mattRSK:
kyhwana2:
mattRSK: I do not support the gay marriage bill. Simply because I believe that it is not normal.

Why do you think it's not normal?

My understanding of marriage is that it is about starting a family. Same sex couples biologically can not have children.

We've been over this and you're wrong.

Yes but that is my understanding of marriage and it is why I chose to get married.

ajobbins

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#666073 2-Aug-2012 12:15

BraaiGuy: But the law change will give gay and lesbian couples the right to adopt. So not with you.

Changes aren't being made to the adoption laws, the fact it would allow same sex couples to adopt is a flow on effect.

If you want to argue that children should be brought up by both a mother and a father, you should be arguing for the adoption laws to change to reflect this - which would also have the effect of preventing individual people from adopting a child as well.

Marriage, in the context of this debate, is the recognition of a relationship status in law.

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Skolink

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#666074 2-Aug-2012 12:16

tardtasticx:
BraaiGuy:
Gay Marriage, I vote Nay.

There are actually two separate issues here. The rights for gay couples to adopt, and the right to use the term. "marriage". I vote Nay to both.

Points I'm basing my decision on:
1- Because the definition of the word "marriage" is man and woman. Husband and wife.
2- Its no good if we change the definition of the word here in NZ and Gay marriages are not recognised elsewhere. Moving to Aus for example, your marriage is not recognised, how many thousands of kiwis move to Aus every year? Those that do will still feel discriminated. Only a few countries recognise Gay Marriage.
3- We should be fighting for equal rights for Gay and Lesbian couples, not redefining a word for a minority.
4- Legalise Gay Marriage, the churches will be next to be targeted. There will always be discrimination, like it or not.
5- A child (yes we have to discuss this) brought up in a gay household may grow up thinking this is normal. Its not a normal.
6- Gay men for example will never be able to give a child (especially a daughter) a better upbringing that a healthy mom and dad. Visa vesa for lesbian couples with boys.
7- What about legalising polygamous marriage? My view is that a polygamous marriage would be better in a child?s best interest to a gay marriage. Can anybody come up with some examples why this is not the case? So then why not legalise it too? Some could probably argue that its even better than a heterosexual marriage.

1- whos definition? Who gets to decide that?
2- this change will have an impact on other countries
3- equal rights are nothing if we aren't equal. Stil not being able to marry like everyone else is not equal.
4- no one is forcing churches to perform gay marriage ceremonies.
5- sorry but it is normal. No one chooses to be gay. And it evident not just in humans.
6- We aren't takingchildren from healthy homes, just given children without homes, a home.
7- we aren't discussing that.

1. The government decides it, based on the definitiion of those who push their point the most vocally.
2. agreed
3. 'equal' does not mean 'the same'. Why can't there be a different term used? All people are equal, but not the same.
4. Churches which receive public funding to maintain a historical building may be pressured to.
5. Shall we agree to disagree on this one?
6. There are no such children. Unless you include foster homes, of which there is a shortage of good ones. Gay people may already be able to foster children, anyone know?
7. Not relevant, since there are not children who would otherwise not have parents if gay marriage was not legallised (foster parents may be an exception?)

Interesting debate for the most part. I think my stance is obvious, but I do question myself about why I feel that way about the issue, and whether I am opposing it for good reason.

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freitasm

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#666075 2-Aug-2012 12:16

mattRSK:
kyhwana2:
mattRSK:
kyhwana2:
mattRSK: I do not support the gay marriage bill. Simply because I believe that it is not normal.

Why do you think it's not normal?

My understanding of marriage is that it is about starting a family. Same sex couples biologically can not have children.

We've been over this and you're wrong.

Yes but that is my understanding of marriage and it is why I chose to get married.

That's fine. But others want to get married too, and not necessarily have kids. It's up to them and their believes, not to yours or mine.

Give them the rights to do so. It won't affect you or your family as it is now. But will certainly make their lives better.

As I said before, we shouldn't fight about not giving rights to people. We should fightt about people having rights taken away.

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mattRSK

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#666076 2-Aug-2012 12:18

That's fine. But others want to get married too, and not necessarily have kids. It's up to them and their believes, not to yours or mine.

Give them the rights to do so. It won't affect you or your family as it is now. But will certainly make their lives better.

As I said before, we shouldn't fight about not giving rights to people. We should fightt about people having rights taken away.

So why not change the definiton of a civil union?

KevinL

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#666077 2-Aug-2012 12:18

mattRSK:
kyhwana2:
mattRSK: I do not support the gay marriage bill. Simply because I believe that it is not normal.

Why do you think it's not normal?

My understanding of marriage is that it is about starting a family. Same sex couples biologically can not have children.

They can have biological parents, in much the same way as infertile couples (or couple who have normal fertility but other reasons that they cannot bear children such as a hysterectomy) - through donation of eggs/sperm and/or surrogacy.

A great (celebrity) example is Neil Patrick Harris and his partner David Burtka - they have fraternal twin children achieved through two donated eggs from the same donor, a single spermatozoa from each father, resulting into two embryos which were implanted into an unrelated surrogate. You can't tell me that those aren't some gosh-darn happy kids.

http://www.buzzfeed.com/mjs538/nph-and-david-burtka-best-dads

Klipspringer

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#666078 2-Aug-2012 12:19

kyhwana2:
mattRSK:
kyhwana2:
mattRSK: I do not support the gay marriage bill. Simply because I believe that it is not normal.

Why do you think it's not normal?

My understanding of marriage is that it is about starting a family. Same sex couples biologically can not have children.

We've been over this and you're wrong.

(You're wrong because people who don't plan on having kids get married as well as people who can't have kids too)

No. I think he is right. (But thats my view)

At the end of the day, why should Gay and Lesbian couples have the right to have children if they can't produce them? If they want them, then do what everybody else does. Make them. But why should we socially try to fix a problem that nature does not support?

And hence it goes back to my terminology that Gay and lesbian relationships are not normal.

I know this comment probably will spark a reaction, but really no harm meant. And apologies if anybody takes offence. But again its just my view, and my view is what was asked for.

I'm just curious. And please lets exclude heterosexual couples that are not able to reproduce from your replies.

menabassily

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#666079 2-Aug-2012 12:20

freitasm:
mattRSK:
kyhwana2:
mattRSK:
kyhwana2:
mattRSK: I do not support the gay marriage bill. Simply because I believe that it is not normal.

Why do you think it's not normal?

My understanding of marriage is that it is about starting a family. Same sex couples biologically can not have children.

We've been over this and you're wrong.

Yes but that is my understanding of marriage and it is why I chose to get married.

That's fine. But others want to get married too, and not necessarily have kids. It's up to them and their believes, not to yours or mine.

Give them the rights to do so. It won't affect you or your family as it is now. But will certainly make their lives better.

As I said before, we shouldn't fight about not giving rights to people. We should fightt about people having rights taken away.

+1

Also, not because (let's assume) gay marriage is allowed and legalised, that every gay couple will get married, it's a matter of proposal and acceptance, just like everybody else, which is exactly the point.

Freedom of choice and being treated like every other couple.

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ajobbins

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#666080 2-Aug-2012 12:20

mattRSK: Yes but that is my understanding of marriage and it is why I chose to get married.

Your marriage is to you what it is to you, and the change to the law wont take that away from you. Not everyone who gets married now does so to have a family anyway.

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kyhwana2

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#666081 2-Aug-2012 12:21

mattRSK:
kyhwana2:
mattRSK:
kyhwana2:
mattRSK: I do not support the gay marriage bill. Simply because I believe that it is not normal.

Why do you think it's not normal?

My understanding of marriage is that it is about starting a family. Same sex couples biologically can not have children.

We've been over this and you're wrong.

Yes but that is my understanding of marriage and it is why I chose to get married.

So why do you want to stop other people from getting married?

freitasm

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#666082 2-Aug-2012 12:22

BraaiGuy: At the end of the day, why should Gay and Lesbian couples have the right to have children if they can't produce them? If they want them, then do what everybody else does. Make them. But why should we socially try to fix a problem that nature does not support?

It's about getting married, not about having children.

Some people believe (BELIEVE is the keyword) that marriage exists only for procreation. Some people believe (BELIEVE is the keyword) sex exists only for procreation. Other people have different systems of belief.

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#666083 2-Aug-2012 12:23

mattRSK: I do not support the gay marriage bill. Simply because I believe that it is not normal.

YES, great answer!!!

I totally disagree with you but I respect and appreciate the fact you aren't trying to justify your belief with poor logic.

For me this whole debate is akin to an atheist vs religion debate. I always want the religious side to just say "my faith makes it so" so the atheists can desist with their conversion attempts.

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