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#2331031 5-Oct-2019 15:36

Mahon:

tdgeek:

Thinking the same! It can get childishly bitchy here :-) , but not from all

GV your AKL transport stuff, unsure where that will go fo you, I know its frustrating.

Whats happened this week? The power reform is important, our resident expert Andrew has been banging on about this for years, which is removing Low User charges, which reward well off people with modern energy efficient homes and penalise poor people in homes that cost a mint to heat. Removing payment penalties.

Not a big deal, but fixing one broken system.

It will probably cost me more as Im on low user, new house, Solar HW, but it will be fairer. I see grey power is bagging it. I assume they will pay more as well, as general better off, smaller homes, low user plan. Same old thing, I know its fairer but if it costs me $ I disagree... Sad

How many poorer people that do pay their power bills on time, are going to be adversly affected by this? Must be an enormous number of people that use below 8kw/annum and do not get working for families etc that will have to face an increase in costs. 8kw/annum is quite a large amount of electricity. This is a poorly thought out policy change that will affect the poorer of our community eg people living alone or even older couples. The whole idea of this review was to look at the total cost of our energy including the ballooning costs of transmission.

Are you basing your post on facts? Or not? The negatives if low user plans on poor users is no secret. Why are you combining Low user charges with the prompt payment penalty? Two different issues. Read the various articles so you can get a feel for ALL of the reconditions of the sport. Such as recovering $800m excessive profits caused by the industry fragmentation and abuse.

2/3 of users are on Loe User, they are not there poor. The poor subsidise low users. How will the poor who pay their bills on time be adversely affected? The discount is NOT a discount its a penalty, it wil be integrated into the rates. And most poor dont recipe this anyway, they dont have the financial ease to pay on time.

You need to take your party hat off and read the information. But if you think this review will make the poor pay more and the well off pay less then its an OMG

Read the review

Mahon

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#2331060 5-Oct-2019 16:34

tdgeek:

Mahon:

tdgeek:

Thinking the same! It can get childishly bitchy here :-) , but not from all

GV your AKL transport stuff, unsure where that will go fo you, I know its frustrating.

Whats happened this week? The power reform is important, our resident expert Andrew has been banging on about this for years, which is removing Low User charges, which reward well off people with modern energy efficient homes and penalise poor people in homes that cost a mint to heat. Removing payment penalties.

Not a big deal, but fixing one broken system.

It will probably cost me more as Im on low user, new house, Solar HW, but it will be fairer. I see grey power is bagging it. I assume they will pay more as well, as general better off, smaller homes, low user plan. Same old thing, I know its fairer but if it costs me $ I disagree... Sad

How many poorer people that do pay their power bills on time, are going to be adversly affected by this? Must be an enormous number of people that use below 8kw/annum and do not get working for families etc that will have to face an increase in costs. 8kw/annum is quite a large amount of electricity. This is a poorly thought out policy change that will affect the poorer of our community eg people living alone or even older couples. The whole idea of this review was to look at the total cost of our energy including the ballooning costs of transmission.

Are you basing your post on facts? Or not? The negatives if low user plans on poor users is no secret. Why are you combining Low user charges with the prompt payment penalty? Two different issues. Read the various articles so you can get a feel for ALL of the reconditions of the sport. Such as recovering $800m excessive profits caused by the industry fragmentation and abuse.

2/3 of users are on Loe User, they are not there poor. The poor subsidise low users. How will the poor who pay their bills on time be adversely affected? The discount is NOT a discount its a penalty, it wil be integrated into the rates. And most poor dont recipe this anyway, they dont have the financial ease to pay on time.

You need to take your party hat off and read the information. But if you think this review will make the poor pay more and the well off pay less then its an OMG

Read the review

I am basing it on facts. How are single/double people on a benefit/super going to afford to pay more for power? You honestly believe that the pay on time discount will all be integrated into the rates(fully), as well as paying the full non low user rate. Sure people with families who are already on tax breaks will benefit the most from the changes. I am offended that you call me out for being a "party hat" issue. At least my spelling is OK.

It is clear from my research and discussions with Greypower that those at the bottom of the income scale will be affected adversely without some form of income support. We already know from the Governments own review that benefits have fallen behind in the last 10 years and would need a top up of close to 45% to regain parity. This topup will not happen, but further increases of taxes and charges on people who simply cannot pay will further increase poverty.

I believe that the changes will help a lot of middle and top NZ, but without protection there will be consequences for those at the bottom.

tdgeek

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#2331071 5-Oct-2019 17:01

Mahon:

I am basing it on facts. How are single/double people on a benefit/super going to afford to pay more for power? You honestly believe that the pay on time discount will all be integrated into the rates(fully), as well as paying the full non low user rate. Sure people with families who are already on tax breaks will benefit the most from the changes. I am offended that you call me out for being a "party hat" issue. At least my spelling is OK.

It is clear from my research and discussions with Greypower that those at the bottom of the income scale will be affected adversely without some form of income support. We already know from the Governments own review that benefits have fallen behind in the last 10 years and would need a top up of close to 45% to regain parity. This topup will not happen, but further increases of taxes and charges on people who simply cannot pay will further increase poverty.

I believe that the changes will help a lot of middle and top NZ, but without protection there will be consequences for those at the bottom.

Also, read the solar threads here. A poster, posts frequently about the dire need to remove low user charges, and why. In detail.

Ok. Do you seriously believe the power generation and distribution in NZ is competitive and ecomonical and gives us users the best price? Its over profiting 800M per annum. Do you believe that low user charges are actually lower socio economic user charges, that's why they are better value? How does a poor family with kids in a cold damp house get by with power usage? The fact is that better off people who can afford a decent well insulated house, and economical heating, and solar, and gas, can easily get a low user charge. The poor cannot. That not my great idea, its common knowledge, the low user charges are subsidised by the poor.

Who said the single/double people on a benefit/super are going to pay more for power? If somehow they squeak under low user, their rates would increase. The late payment fee, also named prompt payment discount will be applied to all and built into the rates, thats EASILY policed. Like Telco's they will be allowed to charge a late payment fee that better reflects late payment/bad debt costs. The bottom line is that NZ will pay less for power. The upper incomes will pay more as they will have their lower overall (rate and daily) replaced by regular charges. The low user rate is cheaper, the normal usage is more expensive. The normal rate will be in between, some will pay a bit more some will pay less. Thats math. Overall we will all pay less, we are 800M over paying, thats a guide. But the ones that will save more will be the lower incomes who are stuck with normal usage charges. Because the lower incomes dont own a modern well insulated house, with solar HW and or PV, and they dont own economic heating.

So families with tax breaks are a problem? The review is based on power in this country being over profited by 800M, what has tax breaks got to do wth it? Or do you mean we should charge everyone more, and give low rates for singles?

What has this review got to do with taxes? You stated that "benefits have fallen behind in the last 10 years and would need a top up of close to 45% to regain parity." What has that got to do with this review? That is another issue. Id be ok with taxes going up to finally resolve these and many other long standing issues but we dont like taxes, but we like complaining about what we dont have. What I think we can agree on is that NZ cannot afford to fix all of this right now. This power review is merely resolving an inefficient industry, not un like the fuel industry. I dont know the rationale behind why low user charges were brought in, Im sure it was meaningful but it doesnt work now.

Read Andrews many posts in the solar threads. As to party hat, i dont go by post I go by attitude, but apologies if offence caused. This issue isnt partisan its a long standing issue. As to spelling, mine is 11/10, typing 4/10 :-)

GV27

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#2331072 5-Oct-2019 17:03

I don't get how these changes benefit the top end any more though. I would assume they are the ones who have the least trouble paying their bills on time and would therefore have gotten the maximum benefit from any early repayment discounts?

Call me cynical, but the only certainty I can see coming out of these changes is power cos using it as an excuse to hike everyone's rates across the board.

tdgeek

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#2331075 5-Oct-2019 17:16

GV27:

I don't get how these changes benefit the top end any more though. I would assume they are the ones who have the least trouble paying their bills on time and would therefore have gotten the maximum benefit from any early repayment discounts?

Call me cynical, but the only certainty I can see coming out of these changes is power cos using it as an excuse to hike everyone's rates across the board.

Read Andrews posts in the solar thread, they are frequent. If your are referring just to discounts, they are a penalty. 15% per month compounding. Lets say 25% of us pay late, that's free money * So as they have been decreed a penalty, remove them. Gibe the discounts to everyone. After all its been "accounted" for, as its a "discount" So ban them, give everyone a 15% discount.

They wot benefit top end as they pay on time, it benefits the lower income end, who would now get better rates. I.e. get the "discount" by default, or, not be billed an excessive LPF

* A bona fide LPF would need to be added as Telcos have and has been approved as reasonable. Around $15 to $18 per month. To cover finical cost of late payment, staff, bad debt.

But the review covers far more than that. Power here is like the fuel industry.

tdgeek

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#2331084 5-Oct-2019 17:18

GV27:

Call me cynical, but the only certainty I can see coming out of these changes is power cos using it as an excuse to hike everyone's rates across the board.

Unlike fuel companies, power cos charges are transparent. If Company R charges 28c per kWh, 70c daily, and a "discount" then the rules change , that cant hide that and increase charges. The charges after allowing for low user/regular user need to drop by the "discount"

Mahon

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#2331134 5-Oct-2019 19:07

From what I understand, the largest hike has been the daily charge which is excessive in my view. Have you seen the daily charge for north island gas consumers....?

I still believe an overhaul was needed as just understanding the different companies pricing with or without the prompt payment discount is a nightmare. I am also not suggesting that removing the low user fees is a bad thing, just that those already on the poverty line or below will pay more if they dont use much electricity because they already cannot afford to.

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tdgeek

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#2331139 5-Oct-2019 19:39

Mahon:

From what I understand, the largest hike has been the daily charge which is excessive in my view. Have you seen the daily charge for north island gas consumers....?

I still believe an overhaul was needed as just understanding the different companies pricing with or without the prompt payment discount is a nightmare. I am also not suggesting that removing the low user fees is a bad thing, just that those already on the poverty line or below will pay more if they dont use much electricity because they already cannot afford to.

Someone here pays 1-50 per day or something ridiculous like that. I pay 33c Low user the regular 82. Charges vary around the country, but in any case at 8000 or 9000 low user equals regular. Yeah there will be cases where poor people dont use much power and do will be worse off. But I think you'll find that an exception. You may have a modern house with a heat pump or two, where you get over 3 times the kW that you pay for, but a poor family with 3 kids in a dump thats cold and damp has to heat, and they have to cook and that will cost a lot. This has always been the case. Its a bit like the well off guy that has a modern car that runs on the smell of an oil rag, and the poor guy that drives a POS, and uses heaps of petrol as its old and worn. The grey power thing is no doubt true. Elderly couple in a tiny flat. They would pay more, but while they will get an automatic "discount" they pay on time anyway. If they dont use much power an increase won't be a lot. The poor family that can get a better rate, and get the discount that they never get, will be much better off. But the key issue is, most poor people do use more power, they are stuck with that.

There are quite a number of other issues as well that are being addressed, such as helping people get the best deal, its too complicated for many. If a power company can sling you $300 to change to them, and every year, well, nuff said. Like fuel companies, they hide behind complexity and lack of transparency, so we just pay it. We are all free to work hard to find the best deal but for many thats quite hard. No doubt when this was brought in (by National I think) it served a purpose, but power companies just abused it. If you scour the recent articles, one says that power is 80% up on what it was in 1990, and thats inflation adjusted. Since I think 2015 its better, because small ones like Flick and Electric Kiwi innovated and reduced overall pricing. BUT they are too hard for most people, too small, dont trust them, dodgy, they don't have a discount.... So many people stick with Genesis or Meridian as they have, never asked for a deal and pay though the nose. Id suggest its the lower income people who are in that trap

Mahon

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#2331147 5-Oct-2019 20:00

tdgeek:

Mahon:

From what I understand, the largest hike has been the daily charge which is excessive in my view. Have you seen the daily charge for north island gas consumers....?

I still believe an overhaul was needed as just understanding the different companies pricing with or without the prompt payment discount is a nightmare. I am also not suggesting that removing the low user fees is a bad thing, just that those already on the poverty line or below will pay more if they dont use much electricity because they already cannot afford to.

Someone here pays 1-50 per day or something ridiculous like that. I pay 33c Low user the regular 82. Charges vary around the country, but in any case at 8000 or 9000 low user equals regular. Yeah there will be cases where poor people dont use much power and do will be worse off. But I think you'll find that an exception. You may have a modern house with a heat pump or two, where you get over 3 times the kW that you pay for, but a poor family with 3 kids in a dump thats cold and damp has to heat, and they have to cook and that will cost a lot. This has always been the case. Its a bit like the well off guy that has a modern car that runs on the smell of an oil rag, and the poor guy that drives a POS, and uses heaps of petrol as its old and worn. The grey power thing is no doubt true. Elderly couple in a tiny flat. They would pay more, but while they will get an automatic "discount" they pay on time anyway. If they dont use much power an increase won't be a lot. The poor family that can get a better rate, and get the discount that they never get, will be much better off. But the key issue is, most poor people do use more power, they are stuck with that.

There are quite a number of other issues as well that are being addressed, such as helping people get the best deal, its too complicated for many. If a power company can sling you $300 to change to them, and every year, well, nuff said. Like fuel companies, they hide behind complexity and lack of transparency, so we just pay it. We are all free to work hard to find the best deal but for many thats quite hard. No doubt when this was brought in (by National I think) it served a purpose, but power companies just abused it. If you scour the recent articles, one says that power is 80% up on what it was in 1990, and thats inflation adjusted. Since I think 2015 its better, because small ones like Flick and Electric Kiwi innovated and reduced overall pricing. BUT they are too hard for most people, too small, dont trust them, dodgy, they don't have a discount.... So many people stick with Genesis or Meridian as they have, never asked for a deal and pay though the nose. Id suggest its the lower income people who are in that trap

I am one of the users who check for best price on an annual basis and switch as necessary. NZ cannot afford the poorest of us to pay anymore than they do now without some sort of adjustment. The Governments winter payment has just come off for the year, and its just plain dumb that everyone gets it over the age of 65 regardless of income. Would be better to double it for those that need it and not pay it to those who dont.

We must remember that these are crown owned companies as a whole and the government could have changed the way they operate long before now.

tdgeek

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#2331167 5-Oct-2019 20:25

Mahon:

I am one of the users who check for best price on an annual basis and switch as necessary. NZ cannot afford the poorest of us to pay anymore than they do now without some sort of adjustment. The Governments winter payment has just come off for the year, and its just plain dumb that everyone gets it over the age of 65 regardless of income. Would be better to double it for those that need it and not pay it to those who dont.

We must remember that these are crown owned companies as a whole and the government could have changed the way they operate long before now.

From what I have read, if they dont play ball its regulate. Govt will override the Electrical Authority who is tasked for any changes if need be by legislation. Residential charges have increased far more the commercial and industrial, that in itself would mean any action on that metric would benefit all people. Low user fine would provide increases to some, decreases to the needy, but overall, they say power will be cheaper (residential)

I agree on the latter point.

Mahon

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#2332384 8-Oct-2019 10:12

tdgeek:

Mahon:

I am one of the users who check for best price on an annual basis and switch as necessary. NZ cannot afford the poorest of us to pay anymore than they do now without some sort of adjustment. The Governments winter payment has just come off for the year, and its just plain dumb that everyone gets it over the age of 65 regardless of income. Would be better to double it for those that need it and not pay it to those who dont.

We must remember that these are crown owned companies as a whole and the government could have changed the way they operate long before now.

From what I have read, if they dont play ball its regulate. Govt will override the Electrical Authority who is tasked for any changes if need be by legislation. Residential charges have increased far more the commercial and industrial, that in itself would mean any action on that metric would benefit all people. Low user fine would provide increases to some, decreases to the needy, but overall, they say power will be cheaper (residential)

I agree on the latter point.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/116377586/little-relief-for-consumers-as-a-whole-from-electricity-report

Have to agree with this.

tdgeek

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#2332394 8-Oct-2019 10:18

Mahon:

tdgeek:

Mahon:

I am one of the users who check for best price on an annual basis and switch as necessary. NZ cannot afford the poorest of us to pay anymore than they do now without some sort of adjustment. The Governments winter payment has just come off for the year, and its just plain dumb that everyone gets it over the age of 65 regardless of income. Would be better to double it for those that need it and not pay it to those who dont.

We must remember that these are crown owned companies as a whole and the government could have changed the way they operate long before now.

From what I have read, if they dont play ball its regulate. Govt will override the Electrical Authority who is tasked for any changes if need be by legislation. Residential charges have increased far more the commercial and industrial, that in itself would mean any action on that metric would benefit all people. Low user fine would provide increases to some, decreases to the needy, but overall, they say power will be cheaper (residential)

I agree on the latter point.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/116377586/little-relief-for-consumers-as-a-whole-from-electricity-report

Have to agree with this.

Ok, that's fine. Suits me, I'm on low user. If the trend of moving costs from business to residential is fair thats fine too, that's what been happening. Its odd that most agree with the review, except grey power. Odd.

Mahon

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#2332464 8-Oct-2019 11:35

tdgeek:

Mahon:

tdgeek:

Mahon:

I am one of the users who check for best price on an annual basis and switch as necessary. NZ cannot afford the poorest of us to pay anymore than they do now without some sort of adjustment. The Governments winter payment has just come off for the year, and its just plain dumb that everyone gets it over the age of 65 regardless of income. Would be better to double it for those that need it and not pay it to those who dont.

We must remember that these are crown owned companies as a whole and the government could have changed the way they operate long before now.

From what I have read, if they dont play ball its regulate. Govt will override the Electrical Authority who is tasked for any changes if need be by legislation. Residential charges have increased far more the commercial and industrial, that in itself would mean any action on that metric would benefit all people. Low user fine would provide increases to some, decreases to the needy, but overall, they say power will be cheaper (residential)

I agree on the latter point.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/116377586/little-relief-for-consumers-as-a-whole-from-electricity-report

Have to agree with this.

Ok, that's fine. Suits me, I'm on low user. If the trend of moving costs from business to residential is fair thats fine too, that's what been happening. Its odd that most agree with the review, except grey power. Odd.

Just quoted you an expert opinion not agreeing. Greypower representing the older community generally on fixed incomes should know what they are talking about.

tdgeek

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#2332476 8-Oct-2019 11:54

Mahon:

Just quoted you an expert opinion not agreeing. Greypower representing the older community generally on fixed incomes should know what they are talking about.

You said you agreed. No issue with that BTW. Yes, its an expert opinion piece. Why do most agree with the review? It seems all point and shoot to me. The review covered a wide range of issues, not just low user. How many old people can't make sense of plans and pricing, so are on grandfathered plans and being ripped off? The whole point of the review is that A) there are excess profits, but that's denied. B) penalties are disguised as discounts C) over time the costs are being borne by residential at the expense of business.

But this expert opinion piece sees the review, which is based around fairness, will cost more for us? It reads like an oil company piece on climate change IMHO. It seems to say the review will achieve the opposite of what it concluded

National don't even seem to have an issue with it. Instead of opposing it, they commented on other areas the Govt should also be focussing on, but aren't. Its an old out of kilter situation that power companies have fiddled, but it will be interesting to read other opinion pieces

GV27

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#2332477 8-Oct-2019 11:55

Mahon:

Just quoted you an expert opinion not agreeing. Greypower representing the older community generally on fixed incomes should know what they are talking about.

Greypower are a lobby group, nothing more. At one point they wanted the rest of NZ to subsidise internet access for Over 65s. They only care about scoring wins for people over 65 regardless of actual need or merits, so they can justify their own existence while they shake down workers who fund their retirements for more cash, regardless of how much more expensive it is for people trying to get by these days than it was for them.

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