Gays and Marriage

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#666115 2-Aug-2012 12:42

mattRSK:
chiefie: Marriage in church can be between Man and Woman..

Marriage in law can be between two loving couple...

How hard is that for anyone to respect?

What has the church got to do with it? We are talking about the legal definition of marriage?

Well seems like many those that disagree always bring in the view from the Christianity believe of how same sex couple marriage is wrong...

Though are you giving the notion that marriage between same sex couple is acceptable by law then?

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#666116 2-Aug-2012 12:43

BraaiGuy:
kyhwana2:
The human body wasn't "designed" (Human bodies aren't designed, they evolved) for lots of things, yet we do lots of things to them that aren't "normal".

Its unnatural, Physically.

menabassily: A few points to make this more clear and also a question follows:
Homosexuality exists in Nature, a lot of species do it, documented, proven. Nothing is more "Natural" than nature itself. If you want to say "it's not natural" please say "I believe" unless you have fact to base this on.
Gays can have kids of their own, lesbians can for sure give birth, and we all (I think or hope) know what Surrogacy means
Every family is different, parents or not, grandparents or not, uncles, cousins etc.... and we all agree that every kid needs a family.
Questions:
How many of you guys, or a couple you know are actually waiting for this bill to pass? and planning to get married using it?

So because it exists in nature its normal? Female spiders eat the male spiders after sex. Should we as humans see that as normal? Could we learn from them? That argument is so flawed. We are humans, we evolved. We not animals.

Ok, "Natural" means it's nature's way, and yes eating a husband is normal and happens, as humans we have this criminalized. Same thing with same sex relationships, it's normal, it happens in nature as well, but they are not legally allowed to get married like others.

Second thing, sexual preference is not about "learning" however, yes we do learn from nature, most of our inventions are based on that bare idea.

Update:

And yes, we are animals, you said we evolved, that's good, pigs are no fish and fish are no birds. What's your point????

chiefie

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#666118 2-Aug-2012 12:43

menabassily: Correction, Marriage in law can be between a number of loving couple...

Don't forget about countries (Arab countries for example) where they allow a man to marry up to four wives :D also their church (Islamic mosque) recognizes this marriage(S)

Unless you say
Marriage in law can be between 2 loving couple... in NZ, so far :)

Ah true, but in this particular debate, it is only relevant to NZ's law. :-)

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#666119 2-Aug-2012 12:45

BraaiGuy: Its unnatural, Physically.

What you mean it that it does not physically support reproduction. Since marriage and reproduction are mutually exclusive (and sex and reproduction too for that matter)

FWIW I'm yet to have sex for 'reproductive' purposes (one day when I am ready). In the mean time, sex is just bloody good fun ;)

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#666120 2-Aug-2012 12:45

BraaiGuy:
kyhwana2:
The human body wasn't "designed" (Human bodies aren't designed, they evolved) for lots of things, yet we do lots of things to them that aren't "normal".

Its unnatural, Physically.

So what?
If you think it's unnatural, don't do it. Stop trying to force other people to stop doing things that aren't hurting anyone else.

BraaiGuy:
So because it exists in nature its normal? Female spiders eat the male spiders after sex. Should we as humans see that as normal? Could we learn from them? That argument is so flawed. We are humans, we evolved. We not animals.

Because it exists in nature, it's natural. (And thus normal for nature to do that stuff)

Also, we are animals. We're just (mostly) at the top of the food chain.

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#666121 2-Aug-2012 12:47

chiefie: Well seems like many those that disagree always bring in the view from the Christianity believe of how same sex couple marriage is wrong...

Though are you giving the notion that marriage between same sex couple is acceptable by law then?

Not marriage. Civil union. Just change civil union so that couples have equal rights. Leave marriage as it is.

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#666122 2-Aug-2012 12:47

mattRSK:

So now you are back to changing the definition of marriage. I am talking about changing civil unions, not marriage.

Sure, once we change the definition of marriage, your problem with equal marriage disappears, as if by magic!
(Amazing, I know)

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#666123 2-Aug-2012 12:49

freitasm:
As I said before, we shouldn't fight about not giving rights to people. We should fightt about people having rights taken away.

Well said. It's not just about rights, it's also about the influence on changing society.

To address the quiestion of rights being taken away, I can think of two:
1. The use of the word 'marriage' to mean man-woman relationship.
2. The right of a child to be adopted exclusively by a mother and a father.

Of course words change meaning without a law change, but I would assert that this word would not change meaning without the legal definition changing. People already use the word married to mean civil union, but I have only heard it used in a context where it is already know or that it is a same-sex relationship being discussed.
If someone thinks up a new term to mean 'married to the opposite sex', I might use it. I know it sounds like I'm worried that if I say I'm married people might think 'I wonder if he is gay?', but which I am not worried about. I just feel like the term is being 'taken' from me.

I think for me opposition to this law change boils down to believing that being in a homosexual relationship is wrong, and this law change is the state endorsing such relationships, encouraging people to believe that there is nothing wrong with it (those few that still think so), and encouraging people to enter into such relationships. Hopefully my other points still stand on their own though, just being honest about it.

chiefie

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#666124 2-Aug-2012 12:50

mattRSK: Not marriage. Civil union. Just change civil union so that couples have equal rights. Leave marriage as it is.

If BOTH are EQUAL, then consolidate the definition to use the same term Marriage? No harm to you right?

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#666125 2-Aug-2012 12:51

I believe there was a time when the "NORMAL" thing was for black people not to enter churches, go on a bus or to university.

They also had their definition of a man at the time as "white human male" if he's black they were called other names, we all know at least some of them.

A few very brave men and women changed this unfair double standard moral corruption. Now it's time to do the right thing with gay marriages.

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#666127 2-Aug-2012 12:53

menabassily:
Skolink:
menabassily: Forgot to mention one more thing:
4- Allowing gay marriage in NZ will probably help the country's economy, as many couple from overseas will come to NZ to get married.?

But would the marriage be recognised at home? If not, why not just have a ceremony at home, rather than spend all that money coming to NZ and get a worthless piece of paper from this state?

Valid point but why do they come to nz for civil right (true story)?

Oh you mean to live here. Yes, if immigration helps the economy.

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#666128 2-Aug-2012 12:53

Skolink:
freitasm:
As I said before, we shouldn't fight about not giving rights to people. We should fightt about people having rights taken away.

Well said. It's not just about rights, it's also about the influence on changing society.

To address the quiestion of rights being taken away, I can think of two:
1. The use of the word 'marriage' to mean man-woman relationship.
2. The right of a child to be adopted exclusively by a mother and a father.
I just feel like the term is being 'taken' from me.

I think for me opposition to this law change boils down to believing that being in a homosexual relationship is wrong, and this law change is the state endorsing such relationships, encouraging people to believe that there is nothing wrong with it (those few that still think so), and encouraging people to enter into such relationships. Hopefully my other points still stand on their own though, just being honest about it.

1) Having equal marriage doesn't suddenly stop your marriage from being a marriage.
The word isn't being taken away from you, you can still use it.

I'd like to know why you think being a homosexual relationship is wrong, however.

(The state should be endorsing equal marriage because it lets couples know that they can/"should" form stable relationships. Or something)

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#666130 2-Aug-2012 12:55

chiefie:
mattRSK: Not marriage. Civil union. Just change civil union so that couples have equal rights. Leave marriage as it is.

If BOTH are EQUAL, then consolidate the definition to use the same term Marriage? No harm to you right?

No, it comes back to my belief that the purpose of marriage is to raise a family. Same sex unions are completely different and I think should not be covered under the same definition. Anyway that's my belief. What else can I say, that is how I would vote if I was in parliament. Thankyou for the respectful debate.

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#666132 2-Aug-2012 12:56

Skolink:
menabassily:
Skolink:
menabassily: Forgot to mention one more thing:
4- Allowing gay marriage in NZ will probably help the country's economy, as many couple from overseas will come to NZ to get married.?

But would the marriage be recognised at home? If not, why not just have a ceremony at home, rather than spend all that money coming to NZ and get a worthless piece of paper from this state?

Valid point but why do they come to nz for civil right (true story)?

Oh you mean to live here. Yes, if immigration helps the economy.

The last time I've checked, immigration does help the economy. What's your point again?

freitasm

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#666135 2-Aug-2012 12:58

mattRSK:
chiefie: Marriage in church can be between Man and Woman..

Marriage in law can be between two loving couple...

How hard is that for anyone to respect?

What has the church got to do with it? We are talking about the legal definition of marriage?

And that can be changed because it's something made by humans.

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