Gays and Marriage

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#666136 2-Aug-2012 12:58

If I "believe" that beer is a medicine and I'm drinking it for health reasons, does that make beer a medicine?

So if you "believe" marriage is about raising a family, that's your own reason.

Skolink

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#666138 2-Aug-2012 12:59

kyhwana2:
Skolink:
4. Churches which receive public funding to maintain a historical building may be pressured to.

Good, they should be pressured to do so. (Since they're taking MY taxpayers dollars)

Fair enough, I suppose they will have to make the choice.

kyhwana2:

Skolink:
5. Shall we agree to disagree on this one?

That just means you don't have an acceptable answer and you know it.

No, it is off topic, and would be a huge debate on its own.

chiefie

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#666139 2-Aug-2012 13:00

mattRSK:
No, it comes back to my belief that the purpose of marriage is to raise a family. Same sex unions are completely different and I think should not be covered under the same definition. Anyway that's my belief. What else can I say, that is how I would vote if I was in parliament. Thankyou for the respectful debate.

If a marriage to two loving couple, give them the future prospect to be able to raise a family, then that's good. BUT do not restrict the same sex couple the rights to be have that freedom in the future. They too would like one day to be able to raise a family of their own - regardless how the children come about, either by IVF, Surrogacy or adoption, the point does not matter.

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menabassily

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#666141 2-Aug-2012 13:01

menabassily: If I "believe" that beer is a medicine and I'm drinking it for health reasons, does that make beer a medicine?

So if you "believe" marriage is about raising a family, that's your own reason.

People marry for all sorts of different reasons, we shouldn't just deny them the right to get married because their reasons are different than ours

freitasm

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#666142 2-Aug-2012 13:02

Skolink: I think for me opposition to this law change boils down to believing that being in a homosexual relationship is wrong, and this law change is the state endorsing such relationships, encouraging people to believe that there is nothing wrong with it (those few that still think so), and encouraging people to enter into such relationships.

The State is not going to encouraging people to believe in anything, as it shouldn't.

What the State does is give the chance to each human being to believe in whatever they want to believe.

If you believe two men can't get married, that's fine. You are not being forced to get married to another man and not being forced to believe there's nothing wrong with it. However, for other people with a different mindset the State guarantees they have the same rights as you to believe in the opposite.

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MikeSkyrme

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#666143 2-Aug-2012 13:03

So, just to get clarification, the crux of the matter is not really anything about same sex marriage. It is about the ability for same sex couples to be able to adopt children?

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chiefie

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#666147 2-Aug-2012 13:06

MikeSkyrme: So, just to get clarification, the crux of the matter is not really anything about same sex marriage. It is about the ability for same sex couples to be able to adopt children?

It is one of the many crux that easier to bring up by either side of the issue. And almost the most obvious point to spin the debate around.

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MikeSkyrme

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#666148 2-Aug-2012 13:10

chiefie:
MikeSkyrme: So, just to get clarification, the crux of the matter is not really anything about same sex marriage. It is about the ability for same sex couples to be able to adopt children?

It is one of the many crux that easier to bring up by either side of the issue. And almost the most obvious point to spin the debate around.

Certainly not trying to spin the debate. Having skimmed through a lot of these posts, the most common theme I see is that concerning family / children.
I am merely trying to understand the entire reasoning behind the arguments.

Michael Skyrme - Instrumentation & Controls

menabassily

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#666149 2-Aug-2012 13:14

MikeSkyrme:
chiefie:
MikeSkyrme: So, just to get clarification, the crux of the matter is not really anything about same sex marriage. It is about the ability for same sex couples to be able to adopt children?

It is one of the many crux that easier to bring up by either side of the issue. And almost the most obvious point to spin the debate around.

Certainly not trying to spin the debate. Having skimmed through a lot of these posts, the most common theme I see is that concerning family / children.
I am merely trying to understand the entire reasoning behind the arguments.

Just trying to find out what people think of the subject and its positive/negative consequence. Basically everybody agree on the consequence, but disagree on their positive/negative nature.

tardtasticx

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#666150 2-Aug-2012 13:14

MikeSkyrme:
chiefie:
MikeSkyrme: So, just to get clarification, the crux of the matter is not really anything about same sex marriage. It is about the ability for same sex couples to be able to adopt children?

It is one of the many crux that easier to bring up by either side of the issue. And almost the most obvious point to spin the debate around.

Certainly not trying to spin the debate. Having skimmed through a lot of these posts, the most common theme I see is that concerning family / children.
I am merely trying to understand the entire reasoning behind the arguments.

The reasoning is for same sex couples to have the right to marry like hetro couples. If the allow equal marriage then it should pave the way for adoption laws to change also to give same sex couples an equal chance of adopting a child which is not possible with current laws. Ultimately we want all the same rights, but one step at a time if need be.

menabassily

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#666153 2-Aug-2012 13:17

You can also debate this live:
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/7398922/Live-debate-on-marriage-equality

Update:
Labour MP Louisa Wall and Conservative Party leader Colin Craig are answering questions about the debate on marriage equality.

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ajobbins

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#666154 2-Aug-2012 13:18

Skolink: I think for me opposition to this law change boils down to believing that being in a homosexual relationship is wrong, and this law change is the state endorsing such relationships, encouraging people to believe that there is nothing wrong with it (those few that still think so), and encouraging people to enter into such relationships. Hopefully my other points still stand on their own though, just being honest about it.

Marriage doesn't encourage straight people into homosexual relationships in the same way it does not encourage gay people into heterosexual relationships.

Gay people will be gay, and have gay relationships regardless of marriage. The point is the status quo denies them equal recognition of their relationship in law.

You say "encouraging people to believe that there is nothing wrong with it (those few that still think so)"

The facts strongly show otherwise. The current Herald Poll has 58% of respondents in support of marriage equality. The stuff poll is at 76% support. The TVNZ poll has support at 63%. I think this fairly demonstrates that your 'few that still think so' comment is merely a projection of your own bias.

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MikeSkyrme

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#666155 2-Aug-2012 13:19

tardtasticx:
MikeSkyrme:
chiefie:
MikeSkyrme: So, just to get clarification, the crux of the matter is not really anything about same sex marriage. It is about the ability for same sex couples to be able to adopt children?

It is one of the many crux that easier to bring up by either side of the issue. And almost the most obvious point to spin the debate around.

Certainly not trying to spin the debate. Having skimmed through a lot of these posts, the most common theme I see is that concerning family / children.
I am merely trying to understand the entire reasoning behind the arguments.

The reasoning is for same sex couples to have the right to marry like hetro couples. If the allow equal marriage then it should pave the way for adoption laws to change also to give same sex couples an equal chance of adopting a child which is not possible with current laws. Ultimately we want all the same rights, but one step at a time if need be.

Good response.

I do believe that the reasoning behind the fight against equal equal marriage by some, is to do with "what happens next...?"

For the record, as per my earlier post, I am not fussed either way regarding the issue.

Michael Skyrme - Instrumentation & Controls

menabassily

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#666157 2-Aug-2012 13:19

The privilege of marriage is access to the definition of spouse, which under our adoption act, entitles married couples to jointly adopt.
by Louisa Wall 12:23 PM

menabassily

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#666158 2-Aug-2012 13:21

Why is marriage so important when you have a civil union?
by Chon 12:11 PM

As a social institution, it is something that all New Zealanders should have access to given the state issues licences to New Zealand citizens.
by Louisa Wall 12:12 PM

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