Homeless in NZ

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Geektastic

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#1829209 25-Jul-2017 16:33

Our council gave us S223 consent on our subdivision. Essentially that is them signing off the survey plans, road design etc etc as meeting all the relevant standards and it then allows you to proceed with site works.

We put in a small amendment having decided to change something fairly insignificant within our boundary.

Cue new council officer:

Well, your 223 should have included the widening of the highway opposite the entrance.

But it doesn't and we can build what you have consented

Council

Ah well we wouldn't be able to give you final sign off if it is wrong

So what is the point of even applying for the 223 consent if you can just ignore your own consent?

Council

Errrrr...yes but you'll still have to widen the highway

mattwnz

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#1829215 25-Jul-2017 16:41

Fred99:

It was probably not such a problem when Dad and Dave building company did more or less everything from turn the first sod for the foundations through to nailing the corrugated iron on the roof, with some help from a plumber and sparky, but everything is subcontracted out these days - and heavily regulated.

Maybe we need to go back to that, because it seemed to work. The situation has just become far to fragmented. If I was to get a trades person to do work, I don't employ one from a franchise with all the branding etc. I will get a small independent one that is recommended, because they tend to be sustainability cheaper due to not having all the added corporate layers on top. I have had quotes from both and often they are under half the price for often better workmanship, because their reputation is built on their workmanship. This isn't teh same with franchises where staff move between companies.

Also too many people clipping the ticket along the way. Many companies seem to quote for work, but then subcontract it out to another company. So each company is making a margin of the chain, so the quote must include some healthy margins to do that.

mattwnz

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#1829220 25-Jul-2017 16:46

Pumpedd:

Geektastic:

There must be something wrong somewhere. Next time you see a house going up, make a note of the date.

See how long it takes to build what is essentially four walls and a roof. I've seen houses around here take over 8 months, and sit as frames being rained on for 2 or 3 of those.

What accounts for that time, I have no idea but certainly somebody, somewhere is taking a very long time (unnecessarily so I would suspect) to do something involved.

But....if 5 years down the line something is found wrong with the house the Council are the first to be blamed. All these inspections/rules etc are to cover Councils liability which are things we have demanded over the last 20 years.

Councils are government, and will usually be the last man standing. But in some ways it is no different from insurance cover, just means any costs with errors are spread across a large number of people (eg rate payers) This is why councils will try to limit their liability as much as possibly by requiring producer statements from all material manufacturers, the engineer etc

UHD

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#1829243 25-Jul-2017 17:31

Fred99:

This kitset home assembled by a mate of mine in NSW a couple of years ago. IIRC cost was $120k, took 4 guys two days to assemble it to move in, I think only one of them was a tradie (plumber) - none had any building experience. Insulated weatherboard clad panels pre-made with framing and internal lining, window cutouts etc - it just bolted together. Two BR downstairs, large mezzanine BR upstairs, large living area.

http://www.a1homes.co.nz/plans/13/EH168

You can get a pretty sweet kitset for less than NZ$120,000 in NZ though.

Fred99

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#1829247 25-Jul-2017 17:40

Geektastic:

I've seen that happen with details on building consent, signed off and approved on plans, inspector picks on site that it doesn't meet code so won't sign it off - there's no comeback, the LPB shouldn't have done the work to plan if it didn't meet code. So it's another potential point for dispute and delays - especially if it's a big job to put right.

mattwnz

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#1829251 25-Jul-2017 17:58

UHD:

Fred99:

This kitset home assembled by a mate of mine in NSW a couple of years ago. IIRC cost was $120k, took 4 guys two days to assemble it to move in, I think only one of them was a tradie (plumber) - none had any building experience. Insulated weatherboard clad panels pre-made with framing and internal lining, window cutouts etc - it just bolted together. Two BR downstairs, large mezzanine BR upstairs, large living area.

http://www.a1homes.co.nz/plans/13/EH168

You can get a pretty sweet kitset for less than NZ$120,000 in NZ though.

I don't think they aren't exactly 'kitsets', just the raw materials. You still need a LBP to build it. The labour costs at least double that, then you addon all theother costs.

mattwnz

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#1829252 25-Jul-2017 17:59

Fred99:

Geektastic:

I've seen that happen with details on building consent, signed off and approved on plans, inspector picks on site that it doesn't meet code so won't sign it off - there's no comeback, the LPB shouldn't have done the work to plan if it didn't meet code. So it's another potential point for dispute and delays - especially if it's a big job to put right.

Shouldn't it have been picked up at the consent approval stage though, when they went through all the plans and specs? Although these days that is hundreds of pages.

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Fred99

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#1829256 25-Jul-2017 18:24

mattwnz: Shouldn't it have been picked up at the consent approval stage though, when they went through all the plans and specs? Although these days that is hundreds of pages.

Yes it should have been picked up from plans - but Council aren't going to pay for any unforseen cost, and ultimately, it has to meet code.
Say that incurs extra cost - then nobody wants to pay, least of all the homeowner.
Now the designer shouldn't have stuffed up, neither should Council, also the LBP should have tweaked - when he quoted the job. It shouldn't happen - but it does. That's one example of many possible hiccups. Ask anybody who's had a new build how smooth and stress free it went. Most people I know who've built new homes have been stress monkeys for years. Builders I know need the right attitude - or they'd go nuts.

Geektastic

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#1829257 25-Jul-2017 18:27

Fred99:
mattwnz: Shouldn't it have been picked up at the consent approval stage though, when they went through all the plans and specs? Although these days that is hundreds of pages.

Yes it should have been picked up from plans - but Council aren't going to pay for any unforseen cost, and ultimately, it has to meet code.
Say that incurs extra cost - then nobody wants to pay, least of all the homeowner.
Now the designer shouldn't have stuffed up, neither should Council, also the LBP should have tweaked - when he quoted the job. It shouldn't happen - but it does. That's one example of many possible hiccups. Ask anybody who's had a new build how smooth and stress free it went. Most people I know who've built new homes have been stress monkeys for years. Builders I know need the right attitude - or they'd go nuts.

Legally it makes no sense. The Act says that the Council must issue S223 consent. If they issue it and it is incorrect, sane legal thinking would remove any liability from anyone but them.

tdgeek

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#1829334 25-Jul-2017 20:39

mattwnz:

Fred99:

mattwnz:

One problem in nz is that the cost of labour is so high. These tradie companies are getting big dollars these days, in many cases far more than many people with uni degrees. Maybe this is partly due to a lack of supply, so any can charge what they want. But many will make a lot of extra money from the margins they make in materials, which will be on top of their hourly rate. Thenthey make get gifts from suppliers for buying a particular product, eg a trip to oz to see the rugby. personally I think all that should be disclosed, like it is now required with the financial market.

Oh dear. I don't agree with the suggestion you seem to be making that a licensed builder is "less qualified" in the workplace than many graduates.

They might make good money if they own a building business - with all the hassles that incurs (dealing with staff etc), but $65 / hour or so as a charge out rate for a tradesperson isn't much. If they're an employee (or contract labour) they're not making that as an hourly rates and also not creaming it on material margins.

Yet despite this opinion about the gold mine and rip-offs in the industry, building companies just keep losing money and going under.

If you talk to some builders and get their opinion, I suspect you'll get some confirmation about rip-off pricing in NZ for some materials, but the major gripe will be about costs for compliance -building consents, worksafe etc.

Traditionally a professional degree where you may have to spend 30k, 50k, 100k or even more on a degree, you would expect to be earning quite a bit more than someone in the trades. People sacrifice perhaps 5-8 years of not earning (or much) while the get the education and get registered , plus the cost loan which reduces their earning while it is being paid off etc. Plus they all the stress etc of studying, and some people just aren't up to it, and drop out. Trades traditionally have been something people do if they couldn't get into university, eg not being applied enough or couldn't get the grades, or not having the maths or communication skills etc. But that isn't really the case these days, and infact many people who would normally go to uni, maybe better off going into the trades, if they want to earn a decent wage.

Generally many trades people will be earning more than $65 an hour these days, and even $65 / hr is around 100-120k a year. Many people with a degree also wouldn't be make $65 / hr, although their business maybe charging them out at a higher rate than that. Many degrees in NZ aren't actually high earning degrees. People who have professional degrees also have lots of compliance costs and membership fees they have to pay which are usually in the thousands per year, as well as CPD costs.

Yes, there is a lot of red tape. Health and safety etc. But a lot of that has come around because of self regulating not working, and people not using common sense. So they have had to have regulation imposed on them.

Builders also usually don't often handle consent side of things, the architects and owner do that usually. They also do all the compliance stuff, getting the design to comply with the standards and code. So once approved, that side of things should be straight forward. As long as things are build to the design and to the standards and code, then it should be easy stuff.

Building companies going under though is definitely a problem, and some people who are paying to build a house can get caught out. There isn't a huge amount of consumer protection for that either. But many don't go under. Not everyone should be business owners, because it isn't easy. It is probably not all that efficient having thousands of house building businesses, where you could get economies of scale and cost by having a smaller number.

No they dont.

They at $65/hr is not earning...

Its revenue, not earning. Deduct transport time, no work right now time, deduct off time (raining and so on), then you get back to earning. This who have salaried/wages earn an hourly rate, every week. That's a true hourly rate.

tdgeek

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#1829336 25-Jul-2017 20:45

mattwnz:

robjg63:

House building should really be a factory build operation. They are stupidly expensive because (apart from land costs) we cut and assemble everyting onsite by hand - every house is a bit different - very labour intensive and quite slow.

Cars only became truly affordable when they went big on production lines.

A modular factory build would/could drive down the prices. They have a few producers in Europe and they have shown some on Grand Designs - they looked pretty good too. I suppose it would be a matter of someone setting up such and operation and there being demand. That could be the problem.

Except you can end up with houses that all look the same, and essentially trailer park villages. Our old state housing schemes, I believe provided a lot of the answers of what we should be doing. I just wonder why were aren't doing these scheme now. It seems the government wants private companies to do everything, and not do anything themselves. It is all very hands off from this type of government.

?? But they all look like state housing. As in look the same, the state house neighbourhood. Many fly here, as you fly over places like LA you see subdivisions, all look the same, but they are nice houses. Not all the same, but by the same. Always reminds me of the Stepford Wives movie. Thats what we need to aim for. To avoid a slum/downtrodden suburb name.

tdgeek

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#1829337 25-Jul-2017 20:46

gzt: Modular does not necessarily mean each house looks the same.

Correct. Modular means they bolt together, many standard sizes to reduce cost, but like Lego, you can make anything you like

mattwnz

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#1830407 26-Jul-2017 00:16

tdgeek:

mattwnz:

robjg63:

House building should really be a factory build operation. They are stupidly expensive because (apart from land costs) we cut and assemble everyting onsite by hand - every house is a bit different - very labour intensive and quite slow.

Cars only became truly affordable when they went big on production lines.

A modular factory build would/could drive down the prices. They have a few producers in Europe and they have shown some on Grand Designs - they looked pretty good too. I suppose it would be a matter of someone setting up such and operation and there being demand. That could be the problem.

Except you can end up with houses that all look the same, and essentially trailer park villages. Our old state housing schemes, I believe provided a lot of the answers of what we should be doing. I just wonder why were aren't doing these scheme now. It seems the government wants private companies to do everything, and not do anything themselves. It is all very hands off from this type of government.

?? But they all look like state housing. As in look the same, the state house neighbourhood. Many fly here, as you fly over places like LA you see subdivisions, all look the same, but they are nice houses. Not all the same, but by the same. Always reminds me of the Stepford Wives movie. Thats what we need to aim for. To avoid a slum/downtrodden suburb name.

Not the originals. They had a guide where they weren't allowed to build identical houses within a certain distance from one another. I beleive they were also architect designed, and they used a number of well know architects at the time. SO you ended up with brick one, next door to a weatherboard one, and in different shapes and configurations. They also were designed to be integrated into existing neighbours, and within high social economic areas, so that you didn't end up with ghetto areas, with just a big mass of state houses. But they weren't built for modern living today.

However the later state housing schemes failed badly in some places, where entire suburbs and towns were all state houses. As a result you ended up with some very rough areas. They however did tend to be well built. In some areas they have recently been bulldozed, and they have built houses that are pretty horrible and so close tegether with hardly any garden. The developers must have made a killing on them, as I believe they were selling packages for between 500-600k, and apparently banks were only too willing to lend on them. They were an easy option to buyer, and marketed to people who didn't want to have to renovate an old house.

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