The Prime Minister and the waitress

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#1290758 24-Apr-2015 12:29

MikeB4:
Satch:
MikeB4:
surfisup1000: OK , how about a poll on this as it is a matter of personal opinion.

1. John Key should be prosecuted for sexual assault.
2. John Key should be prosecuted for assault.
3. John Keys behaviour was 'odd' and a little silly but should go no further than that (he has embarrassed himself and the country enough).
4. John Key behaviour was OK, since he thought he was on ponytail pulling terms with the waitress and in a familiar environment. As such, it is a simple misunderstanding.
5. John Key was setup by people with political motivations.

Personally, I'm at 3.

I would punt for 3 but would add that he should apologise to NZ in general. However his Party may wish more that is up to them.

Why do you think you deserve an apology? It has nothing to do with you. JK should (and has) apologised to the girl in question, even though her motives seemed questionable (and I am not taking anything away from the fact that it was wrong for JK to touch/pull her hair in the first place). But I certainly don't think I am warranted an apology for something that has nothing at all to do with me. And by that I am saying I don't think it alters his ability to run the country which is something that would have an impact on me.

I personally don't give a toss about an apology but the whole episode has been getting coverage in overseas press so could dent our reputation.

Are you and I not "NZ in general"? And do you really, really think this will dent NZ's reputation? Sounds as odd to me as it is someone pulling someone else's ponytail. As networkn already rightly said, if anyone in a position to make such large decisions against NZ takes this issue into consideration then they are not fit for the job.

This is just ludicrous.

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#1290759 24-Apr-2015 12:33

Probably about a 2.5,

His hair touching/pulling fetish is very strange in general, his actions in this case are totally unacceptable and possibly an assault. I'm not fully convinced an assault charge is warranted, but I do think that merely being "shamed" in the media in insufficient and there should be further consequences. Personally I think he should fall on his sword and resign as I see very little difference between his actions and Roger Sutton's.

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#1290771 24-Apr-2015 12:45

When I think of another country I don't judge them by their political issues. IMO it's a bit silly to think he's single-handedly given NZ a bad name. I doubt the general public of the world give a toss about us in a political sense.

The only reason it's made media headlines around the world is because it's weird.

ajobbins

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#1290826 24-Apr-2015 13:47

surfisup1000: OK , how about a poll on this as it is a matter of personal opinion.

1. John Key should be prosecuted for sexual assault.
2. John Key should be prosecuted for assault.
3. John Keys behaviour was 'odd' and a little silly but should go no further than that (he has embarrassed himself and the country enough).
4. John Key behaviour was OK, since he thought he was on ponytail pulling terms with the waitress and in a familiar environment. As such, it is a simple misunderstanding.
5. John Key was setup by people with political motivations.

Personally, I'm at 3.

I'm at about a 2.5. I think it's a little more than 'odd', it's blatantly inappropriate. He should have, but clearly didn't realise that at the time and probably does now, but we can't change what did happen. I don't think he should be prosecuted but this issue should be put to bed with a genuinely sincere apology to the victim in private. The 'apologies' he has given to date lacked any sincerity and genuine understanding of the effect of his actions on this young lady.

Twitter: ajobbins

pknz

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#1290870 24-Apr-2015 15:07

Page 2

networkn: He has already apologised. If the country has any sense it will now move on and focus on issues that affect more than a single person, like unemployment, Christchurch rebuild or the housing market.

Page 3

networkn: Doesn't feel like sexual assault to me, far from ideal but hardly worthy of 3 pages of discussion.

Page 3

networkn: Well preschoolers normally pull hair out of malice in an aggressive or punishing manner, doesn't seem to me to be the same thing. Again not ideal but hardly something that deserves national press and discussion.

Page 14

networkn: Their only way out now is to say nothing in my opinion. As I suspected and suggested all along, there is more to this story than was initially released.

Hm.

qyiet

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#1290888 24-Apr-2015 15:28

pknz:
Hm.

Using someone's own words against them is a clear example of left wing bias.

Warning: reality may differ from above post

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#1290910 24-Apr-2015 16:06

pknz: Page 2
networkn: He has already apologised. If the country has any sense it will now move on and focus on issues that affect more than a single person, like unemployment, Christchurch rebuild or the housing market.

Page 3
networkn: Doesn't feel like sexual assault to me, far from ideal but hardly worthy of 3 pages of discussion.

Page 3
networkn: Well preschoolers normally pull hair out of malice in an aggressive or punishing manner, doesn't seem to me to be the same thing. Again not ideal but hardly something that deserves national press and discussion.

Page 14
networkn: Their only way out now is to say nothing in my opinion. As I suspected and suggested all along, there is more to this story than was initially released.

Hm.

Hi,

Not sure if you are agreeing with me or not, but for the record, I stand by every comment I have made.

tigercorp

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#1291009 24-Apr-2015 17:56

surfisup1000: OK , how about a poll on this as it is a matter of personal opinion.

1. John Key should be prosecuted for sexual assault.
2. John Key should be prosecuted for assault.
3. John Keys behaviour was 'odd' and a little silly but should go no further than that (he has embarrassed himself and the country enough).
4. John Key behaviour was OK, since he thought he was on ponytail pulling terms with the waitress and in a familiar environment. As such, it is a simple misunderstanding.
5. John Key was setup by people with political motivations.

I'm a 2.4 - John Key's behaviour was totally inappropriate (bordering on weird and a little creeping) but I don't believe its a hanging (i.e. resignation or prosecution) offence.

If the waitress's account is accurate then I also don't begrudge her putting it out in the public. John Key is the PM, not an ordinary cafe customer and the power imbalance is most certainly in play. If going public made her feel better then good on her.

Additionally, the debate around what's appropriate behaviour is a good one to have at a national level at any time. Stop bagging Key personally by all means, but there's value in discussing or reminding each other that when something's not right, its wrong.

billbennett

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#1291035 24-Apr-2015 18:34

Geekzone has just illustrated what we've learnt about John Key over the past seven years:

A large number of New Zealanders hate the man, hate his politics, his image and everything.
A similarly large number think he can't do anything wrong.
Every time he does something stupid or immoral the people in group 1 hate him more than ever.
Every time he does something stupid or immoral some of the people in group 2 dig deeper into their reservoir of giving him the benefit of the doubt.
A hardcore handful of the group 2 people might wish he'd go further and stop pussyfooting around.
A few people in the middle drift from 1 to 2 or from 2 to 1 every so often. But for the most part views are entrenched and have been all along.
We go on getting more and more polarised over this.
That causes some people, mainly moderates to disengage from politics and civil society which in turn cranks up polarisation. Loop back to step 7.
We may or may not look stupid overseas. People in group 1 worry about this, people in group 2 don't care or pretend it doesn't matter.
This will go on until either John Key does something so incredibly dumb there's a sizable defection from group 2 OR Key gets bored and leaves politics.

Bill Bennett www.billbennett.co.nz @billbennettnz

networkn

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#1291047 24-Apr-2015 18:55

billbennett: Geekzone has just illustrated what we've learnt about John Key over the past seven years:

A large number of New Zealanders hate the man, hate his politics, his image and everything.
A similarly large number think he can't do anything wrong.
Every time he does something stupid or immoral the people in group 1 hate him more than ever.
Every time he does something stupid or immoral some of the people in group 2 dig deeper into their reservoir of giving him the benefit of the doubt.
A hardcore handful of the group 2 people might wish he'd go further and stop pussyfooting around.
A few people in the middle drift from 1 to 2 or from 2 to 1 every so often. But for the most part views are entrenched and have been all along.
We go on getting more and more polarised over this.
That causes some people, mainly moderates to disengage from politics and civil society which in turn cranks up polarisation. Loop back to step 7.
We may or may not look stupid overseas. People in group 1 worry about this, people in group 2 don't care or pretend it doesn't matter.
This will go on until either John Key does something so incredibly dumb there's a sizable defection from group 2 OR Key gets bored and leaves politics.

I'd argue it's the same with whomever is in charge in almost every democratically elected country in the world.

billbennett

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#1291053 24-Apr-2015 19:03

networkn:
billbennett: Geekzone has just illustrated what we've learnt about John Key over the past seven years:

A large number of New Zealanders hate the man, hate his politics, his image and everything.
A similarly large number think he can't do anything wrong.
Every time he does something stupid or immoral the people in group 1 hate him more than ever.
Every time he does something stupid or immoral some of the people in group 2 dig deeper into their reservoir of giving him the benefit of the doubt.
A hardcore handful of the group 2 people might wish he'd go further and stop pussyfooting around.
A few people in the middle drift from 1 to 2 or from 2 to 1 every so often. But for the most part views are entrenched and have been all along.
We go on getting more and more polarised over this.
That causes some people, mainly moderates to disengage from politics and civil society which in turn cranks up polarisation. Loop back to step 7.
We may or may not look stupid overseas. People in group 1 worry about this, people in group 2 don't care or pretend it doesn't matter.
This will go on until either John Key does something so incredibly dumb there's a sizable defection from group 2 OR Key gets bored and leaves politics.

I'd argue it's the same with whomever is in charge in almost every democratically elected country in the world.

True. Only I suspect things have been getting progressively more polarised in recent years. I'm not sure when it started but it wasn't as polarised as today when, say, Jim Bolger was Prime Minister.

Bill Bennett www.billbennett.co.nz @billbennettnz

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networkn

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#1291057 24-Apr-2015 19:14

True. Only I suspect things have been getting progressively more polarised in recent years. I'm not sure when it started but it wasn't as polarised as today when, say, Jim Bolger was Prime Minister.

Funny you say that, I've felt that way about American Politics for the last 5 years as well. When Obama was first elected it felt like a new America full of hope and ready for a new Era, but it took about 6 months before the knives came out. It's almost unbelievable the turn around.

I am a little young to discuss Bolger with any authority but I'd say my memory was of big arguments about both sides when overhearing his politics discussed. I think now it's so much easier to make your opinion felt to a wider audience, and the internet allows people
to magnify (or perhaps show) their true colours with less fear of reprisal. I have seen many things said even in this thread, I'd be incredibly surprised if that same person said to a group of people in person.

I also think it's much more acceptable to discuss politics than it used to, much the same as it's much more widely accepted to discuss sex openly etc. I am not convinced this is a good thing in a lot of ways, but I am old fashioned at heart.

blakamin

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#1291074 24-Apr-2015 19:46

I forgot to mention... JK made the "Entertainment News" in Oz yesterday... right after Robert Downey Jr walking out of an interview...

chatterbox

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#1291337 25-Apr-2015 16:12

surfisup1000: OK , how about a poll on this as it is a matter of personal opinion.

1. John Key should be prosecuted for sexual assault.
2. John Key should be prosecuted for assault.
3. John Keys behaviour was 'odd' and a little silly but should go no further than that (he has embarrassed himself and the country enough).
4. John Key behaviour was OK, since he thought he was on ponytail pulling terms with the waitress and in a familiar environment. As such, it is a simple misunderstanding.
5. John Key was setup by people with political motivations.

Personally, I'm at 3.

I'm at a 4.

I probably have a similar sense of humour as him. I just see it as lighthearted fun. Used to do this all the time in school and I've definitely done this at work (to date the recipient has always laughed or tried to get me back). If he had been pulling my hair I probably would have tapped him in the butt with my shoe (lightly) just as you might a friend. Sometimes friendships start that way. I would never have taken offense to it but I was obviously brought up with a different demeanour. I really wish adults would learn to be more light hearted and laugh a lot more like kids do instead of thinking the worst of people or situations.

Fact he's the PM doesn't change anything in my opinion. It's not like he was at the APEC conference, he was out with his wife at a cafe.

I like the fact he makes jokes and even directed at himself at times. He just seems a lot more approachable than a lot of previous PMs.
I think it's a bit much to ask for a resignation as I hardly doubt we'd find another human being in the world that hasn't done something odd in their life. The punishment just wouldn't fit the so called 'crime.' I don't want him to change at all, and I voted against the guy when he first got in but that was due to his policies.

As for the waitress - she needs to learn some life skills that will put her in good stead for the rest of her life. Even if she was upset by this, she needed to just say CONVINCINGLY ONCE, that she didn't like it and give him a look that conveys this. Or direct it at his wife to ask him to keep his hands off her and it's likely the wife will also have a chat with him once they leave. It would quash it from the outset. There are far worse curve balls life will throw at you. She needs to learn how to handle herself and others. Talking to media usually makes things like this worse. Life's too short, she should be out finding a partner, hanging with friends and making life goals. This really shouldn't factor on her radar. She shouldn't sweat the small stuff - it makes for a very stressful and in turn, unhappy life if you're always up in arms over these things. It really is wasted energy.

The only thing the PM is guilty of is slightly misreading the situation but who hasn't done that before?! He seems to have acknowledged she was upset by it and tried to make amends. It's not like I haven't tried holding up sign posts to my partner about various things and STILL have to spell it out to him.

Never say never

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#1291360 25-Apr-2015 16:41

chatterbox:
I'm at a 4.

I probably have a similar sense of humour as him. I just see it as lighthearted fun. [etc ...]

Very interesting choice of threads for your first post...

Some may see a pinch on the bottom or quick fondle of a breast as just lighthearted fun. I can assure you the recipient almost certainly wouldn't agree, just as the women I've talked to about this (wife, sister and a couple of others) didn't think pulling a waitresses hair was in any way shape or form acceptable. I think many would agree this whole thing has been blown out of proportion - probably in no small part because of the number of people who seem so intent on defending it!

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