Nope to dope or toot toot?

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#2597088 3-Nov-2020 14:36

networkn:

Right, which means the law is working as intended.

Nope:

Unfortunately, the police have an ability to perform an abuse of discretion without being noticed or regulated by the judicial or legislative community in what is referred to as the "legal shadow". In this place questionable police tactics are being performed and, in a sense, covered up with police privilege backed by government support.

If you want to have a rational discussion about it, change the subject from "cannabis enforcement" to which you have an apparent obsession, to something like driving enforcement and allowing cops discretion as to whether they issue tickets based on whether they like you or not.

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#2597099 3-Nov-2020 14:41

I guess it depends on how often Police are giving warnings and how often they are prosecuting when the only offence is possesion of a nominal amount of cannabis (thereby not a possible supplier).

3100 prosectioins in a year isn't a lot. If they went after everyone they couild get that in a weekend

gzt

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#2597111 3-Nov-2020 15:04

GV27:
gzt:
To me it's pretty clear the electorate does agree on a loosening of some kind around the criminalisation aspect. Many people voted 'no' because they prefer a decriminalisation approach for various reasons.

Then you're making stuff up. The electorate didn't agree to legalisation in the form proposed. Trying to twist that using projected motivations for people who voted 'No' into clear support for a completely different proposal is entirely baseless.

The vote was pretty close. It's certainly an opinion, based on people I know, and based on views expressed by others on this forum. Add to that voters just returned a government that in 2019 provided specific legislative changes to make it clear police officers have discretion in this area. It's very clear that 46%+ do not think individual use should be a crime. It's not much of a stretch to assume at least 4%+ of the 'no' vote would have voted yes to a decriminalisation measure.

There are tendencies both ways in the major parties so it's not surprising this is a referendum. I expect there will be another one one day. With 80% of NZers having tried it at least once it's clear that it's something most people are comfortable with even if most people are not regular imbibers.

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#2597118 3-Nov-2020 15:20

Fred99:

Unfortunately, the police have an ability to perform an abuse of discretion without being noticed or regulated by the judicial or legislative community in what is referred to as the "legal shadow". In this place questionable police tactics are being performed and, in a sense, covered up with police privilege backed by government support.

If you want to have a rational discussion about it, change the subject from "cannabis enforcement" to which you have an apparent obsession, to something like driving enforcement and allowing cops discretion as to whether they issue tickets based on whether they like you or not.

If you want a rational discussion, you don't encourage it, by accusing others of being obsessed, esp as... people in glass houses etc...

If the police exercise an abuse of discretion, then the courts still can opt to not take further action. Checks and balances. In a country of 5 million people, the number of people convicted solely of possession of cannabis, with no priors, etc, is minuscule. Over time, with the new legislation passed, I expect it to reduce even further.

Anyway, I'm done with this discussion, as I predicted earlier, this conversation has already started to devolve in increasingly insulting observations.

gzt

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#2597120 3-Nov-2020 15:20

tdgeek: Did you read the post I posted from a Community Law Office?

I did. It contained no information about how many unnecessary and unsuccessful searches were performed, and what conditions any individual officer outlined in order to avoid charges.

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#2597123 3-Nov-2020 15:24

Fred99:

antonknee:

The real failure IMO is for the discretion to even exist. Discretion by its nature is not applied fairly.

This 100%.

Agree. Relying on the discretion of an enforcement agency to implement change is a poor strategy at best. It certainly won't make outcomes more equitable.

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#2597127 3-Nov-2020 15:28

gzt:

... not surprising this is a referendum. I expect there will be another one one day.

I heard Ardern had ruled out any further work on cannabis law reform if the referendum comes back with a no. I guess you can't rule out a members ballot and conscience vote, but otherwise it's a dead duck this term if the final vote is no.

Mike

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#2597130 3-Nov-2020 15:33

gzt:
tdgeek: Did you read the post I posted from a Community Law Office?

I did. It contained no information about how many unnecessary and unsuccessful searches were performed, and what conditions any individual officer outlined in order to avoid charges.

Thats right, it didnt, its a Community Law guideline. But we have been quoted here, 3100 per annum. That's pretty darn low. If you want 3100 a weekend thats easy, every party has dope in it. It seems to be working as planned, but no doubt we will hear more in the current environment

gzt

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#2597133 3-Nov-2020 15:38

MikeAqua:
gzt:
... not surprising this is a referendum. I expect there will be another one one day.
I heard Ardern had ruled out any further work on cannabis law reform if the referendum comes back with a no. I guess you can't rule out a members ballot and conscience vote, but otherwise it's a dead duck this term if the final vote is no.

I think that is the case. Presumably if the Green Party is in a stronger position next election they will condition a rerun or a modified proposal for a referendum. Who knows, maybe it will make more sense to give it a break for the next term. On the other hand, there seemed to be a lot of activity anticipating legality and that may cause some pressure for a rerun.

antonknee

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#2597135 3-Nov-2020 15:47

networkn:

Right, which means the law is working as intended.

Even if the police decide it's worth bringing charges, the courts can still drop it at that point. Two points of consideration.

My concerns with this (and it doesn't just apply to cannabis legislation) are multiple:

the cost of arrest is already incurred at this point
the costs and time wasted in it going to court only to be thrown out
the damage is often already done by arresting someone (think other country's via requirements, your employer finding out, a family member etc)
still relying on Police and courts to exercise discretion fairly and appropriately

gzt

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#2597136 3-Nov-2020 15:48

How close the special votes are will also have an influence. It would not surprise me that much if it wins. I was expecting close to 40% yes for this referendum and the interim result exceeded that..

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#2597142 3-Nov-2020 16:02

gzt: How close the special votes are will also have an influence. It would not surprise me that much if it wins. I was expecting close to 40% yes for this referendum and the interim result exceeded that..

IIRC 70% would need to be "yes" votes, so possible even if quite unlikely.

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#2597221 3-Nov-2020 18:58

antonknee:

networkn:

Right, which means the law is working as intended.

Even if the police decide it's worth bringing charges, the courts can still drop it at that point. Two points of consideration.

My concerns with this (and it doesn't just apply to cannabis legislation) are multiple:

the cost of arrest is already incurred at this point
the costs and time wasted in it going to court only to be thrown out
the damage is often already done by arresting someone (think other country's via requirements, your employer finding out, a family member etc)
still relying on Police and courts to exercise discretion fairly and appropriately

1. What cost? We dont pay the Police on a piecemeal basis. They get paid if they arrest Bin Laden or eat Macca's all night when nothing doing.

2. If the Police prosecute and the court throw it out, thats called checks and balances.

3. IIRC the Police dont post arrests on Facebook, if you get off its get off or diversion, no record

4. Police and the courts are what we have, I aint seen many MP's patrolling the streets, its our justice system, the Police police the community, the courts enforce the Rule of Law. If you want to dispense with the Police and the Courts, Im off to Cuba to get relief.

tdgeek

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#2597222 3-Nov-2020 18:59

Maybe Ive missed it but I've not seen a list of pro's and con's from the YES and NO people here

gzt

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#2597292 3-Nov-2020 21:23

Fred99:
gzt: How close the special votes are will also have an influence. It would not surprise me that much if it wins. I was expecting close to 40% yes for this referendum and the interim result exceeded that..
IIRC 70% would need to be "yes" votes, so possible even if quite unlikely.

Unlikely. On the other hand these votes tend to be overseas for one reason or another and disproportionaly representative of the changing tide compared to the general population. If the Green Party campaign has reached those potential voters as effectively as they reached Auckland central voters this time around, well..

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