Our new coalition government.

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584 posts

Ultimate Geek
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#2104262 10-Oct-2018 08:50

I believe a large portion of it is spent already...almost $1BN is spent from the microplasma cow issue and should have been paid before now. Teachers/nurses will get a good whack at it as will over salary reviews in the public service over the coming months.

Most of the Governments elections promises are still being formulated in committee rooms such as welfare reforms, tax working groups and cheaper doctors visits.

This money effectively belongs to all NZers as it is our tax money overcharged (in effect).

There is no doubt a slow down in our economy and the global economy is coming, so paying off debt to protect us all from this event would be very prudent as some are suggesting in this thread.

We must also realise that the current government can not take all the credit for this surplus as it is an effect of financial management over many years.

MikeB4

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#2104267 10-Oct-2018 09:07

GV27:

Giving your kids a country with low debt is meaningless if we're decades behind in infrastructure and critical CAPEX.

The Clark Govt paid down overseas debt. It also left Auckland woefully unprepared in terms of the amount of infrastructure needed to support the population they were jamming into it.

So you are OK with saddling our tamariki with paying for our present, supporting our future. Paying for our past, funding their present and trying to prepare for their future. You dont think that is rather selfish?

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

networkn

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#2104269 10-Oct-2018 09:12

MikeB4:

GV27:

Giving your kids a country with low debt is meaningless if we're decades behind in infrastructure and critical CAPEX.

The Clark Govt paid down overseas debt. It also left Auckland woefully unprepared in terms of the amount of infrastructure needed to support the population they were jamming into it.

So you are OK with saddling our tamariki with paying for our present, supporting our future. Paying for our past, funding their present and trying to prepare for their future. You dont think that is rather selfish?

That's an .. Interesting.... way of interpreting what he wrote.

GV27

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#2104287 10-Oct-2018 09:25

MikeB4:

GV27:

Giving your kids a country with low debt is meaningless if we're decades behind in infrastructure and critical CAPEX.

The Clark Govt paid down overseas debt. It also left Auckland woefully unprepared in terms of the amount of infrastructure needed to support the population they were jamming into it.

So you are OK with saddling our tamariki with paying for our present, supporting our future. Paying for our past, funding their present and trying to prepare for their future. You dont think that is rather selfish?

Save me from the hand-wringing "Won't someone please think of the children" emotive meaningless pap.

I'm pointing out having no debt is dumb if your country is paralysed because you haven't spent money when it was there to be spent on critical infrastructure. Sure, our economy can grind to a halt under the weight of the population, but we've got no debt! I dunno about you but I suspect my kids won't care if they can't get to work etc.

There's a reason why companies operate with debt on the balance sheet and pay out dividends or invest in upgraded plant and machinery; because it's the smartest way to operate.

MikeB4

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#2104331 10-Oct-2018 09:58

GV27:

MikeB4:

GV27:

Giving your kids a country with low debt is meaningless if we're decades behind in infrastructure and critical CAPEX.

The Clark Govt paid down overseas debt. It also left Auckland woefully unprepared in terms of the amount of infrastructure needed to support the population they were jamming into it.

So you are OK with saddling our tamariki with paying for our present, supporting our future. Paying for our past, funding their present and trying to prepare for their future. You dont think that is rather selfish?

Save me from the hand-wringing "Won't someone please think of the children" emotive meaningless pap.

I'm pointing out having no debt is dumb if your country is paralysed because you haven't spent money when it was there to be spent on critical infrastructure. Sure, our economy can grind to a halt under the weight of the population, but we've got no debt! I dunno about you but I suspect my kids won't care if they can't get to work etc.

There's a reason why companies operate with debt on the balance sheet and pay out dividends or invest in upgraded plant and machinery; because it's the smartest way to operate.

That was the same nonsense dribbled out by Muldoon as he drove us to the brink of bankruptcy and several generations had to pay for his borrow and hope nonsense. You may think think tamariki are meangless but thankfully many see them differently.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

Bluntj

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Ultimate Geek
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#2105336 10-Oct-2018 10:44

Needs to be a balance. Not sure NZ could sustain much more infrastructure building than we have had over the last few years and at present. Most of this had become urgent because a previous Government didnt fund infrastructure in line with growth especially on our roads.

We are seeing massive spends in Auckland due to bad decisions by Local Government leaving the burden up to the tax payer.

I cant see how this Government will have much left after it satisfies all its election promises in addition to the NZ First demands.

The real problem in NZ is not so much the Governments debt but the debts Local Government have saddled their ratepayers with. A lot of Councils are now at maximum debt levels and are struggling to make ends meet with debt repayments. This is one area that needs investigation and reforms.

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GV27

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#2105515 10-Oct-2018 12:26

MikeB4:

That was the same nonsense dribbled out by Muldoon as he drove us to the brink of bankruptcy and several generations had to pay for his borrow and hope nonsense. You may think think tamariki are meangless but thankfully many see them differently.

I don't think they're meaningless, I think Helen Lovejoy-esque shrillness is meaningless. There's no argument here, there's no logic. Just a vague hint at "future generations" like it renders all critical thinking moot.

So I take it you're in favour of ceasing all work on the CRL if it's just Muldoonist nonsense? The $200m announced to fix basic weakness and stability in Wellington's rail network this week?

Tell me what bits of the country's already massively under-developed infrastructure we should not be spending money on so we can have warm fuzzies about how we left our grandchildren an economically crippled country. I'm all ears.

MikeB4

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#2105527 10-Oct-2018 12:41

GV27:

MikeB4:

That was the same nonsense dribbled out by Muldoon as he drove us to the brink of bankruptcy and several generations had to pay for his borrow and hope nonsense. You may think think tamariki are meangless but thankfully many see them differently.

I don't think they're meaningless, I think Helen Lovejoy-esque shrillness is meaningless. There's no argument here, there's no logic. Just a vague hint at "future generations" like it renders all critical thinking moot.

So I take it you're in favour of ceasing all work on the CRL if it's just Muldoonist nonsense? The $200m announced to fix basic weakness and stability in Wellington's rail network this week?

Tell me what bits of the country's already massively under-developed infrastructure we should not be spending money on so we can have warm fuzzies about how we left our grandchildren an economically crippled country. I'm all ears.

You do like to use argumentum ad absurdum

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

GV27

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#2105570 10-Oct-2018 13:05

MikeB4:

GV27:

MikeB4:

That was the same nonsense dribbled out by Muldoon as he drove us to the brink of bankruptcy and several generations had to pay for his borrow and hope nonsense. You may think think tamariki are meangless but thankfully many see them differently.

I don't think they're meaningless, I think Helen Lovejoy-esque shrillness is meaningless. There's no argument here, there's no logic. Just a vague hint at "future generations" like it renders all critical thinking moot.

So I take it you're in favour of ceasing all work on the CRL if it's just Muldoonist nonsense? The $200m announced to fix basic weakness and stability in Wellington's rail network this week?

Tell me what bits of the country's already massively under-developed infrastructure we should not be spending money on so we can have warm fuzzies about how we left our grandchildren an economically crippled country. I'm all ears.

You do like to use argumentum ad absurdum

You're the one who has dismissed my suggestion with Greenpeace begging letter pathos and then assumed I was advocating for Muldoonist-style dice rolling.

Aredwood

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#2105841 10-Oct-2018 19:16

GV27:
MikeB4:

That was the same nonsense dribbled out by Muldoon as he drove us to the brink of bankruptcy and several generations had to pay for his borrow and hope nonsense. You may think think tamariki are meangless but thankfully many see them differently.

I don't think they're meaningless, I think Helen Lovejoy-esque shrillness is meaningless. There's no argument here, there's no logic. Just a vague hint at "future generations" like it renders all critical thinking moot.

So I take it you're in favour of ceasing all work on the CRL if it's just Muldoonist nonsense? The $200m announced to fix basic weakness and stability in Wellington's rail network this week?

Tell me what bits of the country's already massively under-developed infrastructure we should not be spending money on so we can have warm fuzzies about how we left our grandchildren an economically crippled country. I'm all ears.

We can easily scrap everything to do with the proposed trams (light rail) in Auckland. As the trams would be competing against heavy rail. And the central rail loop would remove the need for lots of buses to go to the CBD.

Better land use planning would also reduce traffic congestion a lot. As people would no longer need to drive long distance through rural areas. Just to commute between home and work.

And comparing government debt with company debt is a very poor comparison. As interest on company debt is a fully tax deductible expense. A government doesn't have that advantage.

GV27

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#2105859 10-Oct-2018 19:39

Aredwood:
GV27:

MikeB4:

That was the same nonsense dribbled out by Muldoon as he drove us to the brink of bankruptcy and several generations had to pay for his borrow and hope nonsense. You may think think tamariki are meangless but thankfully many see them differently.

I don't think they're meaningless, I think Helen Lovejoy-esque shrillness is meaningless. There's no argument here, there's no logic. Just a vague hint at "future generations" like it renders all critical thinking moot.

So I take it you're in favour of ceasing all work on the CRL if it's just Muldoonist nonsense? The $200m announced to fix basic weakness and stability in Wellington's rail network this week?

Tell me what bits of the country's already massively under-developed infrastructure we should not be spending money on so we can have warm fuzzies about how we left our grandchildren an economically crippled country. I'm all ears.

We can easily scrap everything to do with the proposed trams (light rail) in Auckland. As the trams would be competing against heavy rail. And the central rail loop would remove the need for lots of buses to go to the CBD.

Better land use planning would also reduce traffic congestion a lot. As people would no longer need to drive long distance through rural areas. Just to commute between home and work.

And comparing government debt with company debt is a very poor comparison. As interest on company debt is a fully tax deductible expense. A government doesn't have that advantage.

So firstly, no part of that statement about the light rail is correct. The train doesn't stop in Mangere and doesn't have the catchment of a Light Rail route; it won't be going where Light Rail can go.

Secondly, we already have train lines which are not reducing the need for capacity on the Dominion Road route so not sure how that's going to magically start happening.

Thirdly, there's no current rapid transport option along SH16 and 'trains to the airport' does literally nothing to resolve this. I would also like to point out that traffic is not being caused by people driving 'through rural areas', it's literally commuter traffic.

So yea, if you don't want a city centre paralysed by buses, motorways with three hours of rush hour and a functioning public transport then no, you can't really just 'scrap everything to do with the proposed light rail in Auckland'. Because they go where trains don't and where buses can't keep up with demand.

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Aredwood

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#2105897 10-Oct-2018 20:54

GV27:
]

So firstly, no part of that statement about the light rail is correct. The train doesn't stop in Mangere and doesn't have the catchment of a Light Rail route; it won't be going where Light Rail can go.

Secondly, we already have train lines which are not reducing the need for capacity on the Dominion Road route so not sure how that's going to magically start happening.

Thirdly, there's no current rapid transport option along SH16 and 'trains to the airport' does literally nothing to resolve this. I would also like to point out that traffic is not being caused by people driving 'through rural areas', it's literally commuter traffic.

So yea, if you don't want a city centre paralysed by buses, motorways with three hours of rush hour and a functioning public transport then no, you can't really just 'scrap everything to do with the proposed light rail in Auckland'. Because they go where trains don't and where buses can't keep up with demand.

The existing heavy rail network can be extended from Otahuhu through to Mangere. And from Kingsland to the North Western Motorway and through to Westgate Measure the distance between the northern line and the NW motorway in Kingsland near the Bond St overbridge. So rail service can be provided to outer areas that are proposed to be covered by the tram network, without needing to build another inner city network first.

Existing heavy rail capacity into the CBD is constrained due to Britomart not being a through station. Which the CRL will fix. This will enable rail to replace some buses that serve areas that can be covered by more / new heavy rail. So less buses in the city.

When the CRL opens, some of the Dominion rd buses would be able to stop in MT Eden, and transfer their passengers to CRL trains. Again less buses in the CBD.

And if rail is still needed down Dominion rd. A new branch line could be construed from the existing rail line in Mt Eden, and run down Dominion rd. Either way, heavy rail service can be provided to every place you mention, without needing to duplicate the CRL.

As for traffic in rural areas. Look at SH 16 between Westgate and Kumeu. Northern Motorway between Albany and Silverdale. Southern Motorway between Manurewa and the Bombay Hills. Those areas are mostly rural, yet the above roads carry lots of commuter traffic. So those commuters are therefore driving through rural areas. If that land was rezoned to urban, then people who work in the City, won't have to live so far away. Why was Millwater rezoned to urban, while Stillwater left as rural? Kumeu rezoned while Westgate left rural?

allio

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Ultimate Geek
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#2105932 10-Oct-2018 21:31

Following on from my previous post, which attempted to predict how National would react to the news of the surplus, we now have Simon Bridges' take:

Simon Bridges has demanded the Government use its $5.5 billion surplus to lower taxes.

The National Party leader claims Labour has "piled on taxes" since they came into power in 2017, which he says explains this year's surplus which is $2.4 billion more than forecast.

"The reason the Government has more money is because New Zealanders have less," he said in a statement.

"New Zealanders can't afford this raid on their back pockets all so the Government can waste their hard earned money on wasteful and untargeted spending."

Compare and contrast to the previous year, when National delivered a $4.1b surplus:

The New Zealand Government has achieved its third fiscal surplus in a row with the Crown accounts for the year ended 30 June 2017 showing an OBEGAL surplus of $4.1 billion, $2.2 billion stronger than last year, Finance Minister Steven Joyce says.

“The 2016/17 Crown accounts are a direct demonstration of the hard work of New Zealanders since the Global Financial Crisis and the benefit of a strong economic plan that is delivering consistent growth,” Mr Joyce says.

Core Crown tax revenue was $75.6 billion for the 2016/17 year, up 7.4 per cent from the previous year with all major tax types increasing.

“The 12.3 per cent growth over last year in company tax, a 7.1 per cent growth in GST, and a 7.4 per cent growth in personal income tax, are a direct consequence of the confidence and growth of Kiwi companies and the growth in jobs.”

“This is the first time net debt has reduced in actual dollar terms since the GFC and the Christchurch earthquakes,” Mr Joyce says. “It’s a significant milestone in the country’s economic recovery from those twin shocks.”

Mr Joyce says that the 2016/17 full year result should be interpreted with caution, and not seen as automatically flowing through into higher surpluses than forecast in the years ahead.

“Treasury has based its forecasts on current economic settings and some reasonably solid growth predictions for the years ahead. A number of commentators have noted a softening of growth indicators in recent days.

“The Government’s future surpluses will be needed to meet the cost of the significant investments we have committed to as part of the next four Budgets including the Government’s $32.5 billion infrastructure programme.

“We also need to keep reducing debt over time to prepare for the next rainy day event.”

Barking at cars.

networkn

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#2106898 12-Oct-2018 17:46

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12141559

This is the person who can lead us supposedly, through an apparently upcoming global financial collapse.

bmt

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Ultimate Geek
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#2106959 12-Oct-2018 18:39

Aredwood:
GV27:]

So firstly, no part of that statement about the light rail is correct. The train doesn't stop in Mangere and doesn't have the catchment of a Light Rail route; it won't be going where Light Rail can go.

Secondly, we already have train lines which are not reducing the need for capacity on the Dominion Road route so not sure how that's going to magically start happening.

Thirdly, there's no current rapid transport option along SH16 and 'trains to the airport' does literally nothing to resolve this. I would also like to point out that traffic is not being caused by people driving 'through rural areas', it's literally commuter traffic.

So yea, if you don't want a city centre paralysed by buses, motorways with three hours of rush hour and a functioning public transport then no, you can't really just 'scrap everything to do with the proposed light rail in Auckland'. Because they go where trains don't and where buses can't keep up with demand.

The existing heavy rail network can be extended from Otahuhu through to Mangere. And from Kingsland to the North Western Motorway and through to Westgate Measure the distance between the northern line and the NW motorway in Kingsland near the Bond St overbridge. So rail service can be provided to outer areas that are proposed to be covered by the tram network, without needing to build another inner city network first.

Existing heavy rail capacity into the CBD is constrained due to Britomart not being a through station. Which the CRL will fix. This will enable rail to replace some buses that serve areas that can be covered by more / new heavy rail. So less buses in the city.

When the CRL opens, some of the Dominion rd buses would be able to stop in MT Eden, and transfer their passengers to CRL trains. Again less buses in the CBD.

And if rail is still needed down Dominion rd. A new branch line could be construed from the existing rail line in Mt Eden, and run down Dominion rd. Either way, heavy rail service can be provided to every place you mention, without needing to duplicate the CRL.

As for traffic in rural areas. Look at SH 16 between Westgate and Kumeu. Northern Motorway between Albany and Silverdale. Southern Motorway between Manurewa and the Bombay Hills. Those areas are mostly rural, yet the above roads carry lots of commuter traffic. So those commuters are therefore driving through rural areas. If that land was rezoned to urban, then people who work in the City, won't have to live so far away. Why was Millwater rezoned to urban, while Stillwater left as rural? Kumeu rezoned while Westgate left rural?

I get the feeling all your wild plans and theories are pretty back of the envelope stuff. Heavy rail is not the answer. Read these:

https://www.greaterauckland.org.nz/2018/10/10/airport-connections-consider-the-whole-network/\

https://www.greaterauckland.org.nz/2018/10/12/over-estimating-the-importance-of-city-airport-trips/

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