When will NZ get equal rights for ALL citizens?

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Forums › Politics › When will NZ get equal rights for ALL citizens?

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#398460 1-Nov-2010 12:00

Teeps. Just because a bunch of people may agree with your point of view does not make all other points of view wrong or biggoted.

This is part of the problem with these debates. If anyone disagrees with a gay point of view they are automatically deemed a biggot.

This particular debate is fairly new to the world and needs to be had. But I think you will find that there are even those in the gay community that do not agree with gay adoption - or gay marraige even.

Teeps

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#398465 1-Nov-2010 12:03

geekiegeek: Teeps. Just because a bunch of people may agree with your point of view does not make all other points of view wrong or biggoted.

This is part of the problem with these debates. If anyone disagrees with a gay point of view they are automatically deemed a biggot.

This particular debate is fairly new to the world and needs to be had. But I think you will find that there are even those in the gay community that do not agree with gay adoption - or gay marraige even.

Is it gay adoption and gay marriage you're against, or equality?

Dratsab

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#398470 1-Nov-2010 12:09

NZtechfreak: I was not aware of this 30 adoptions statistic, seems like an utterly terrible indictment of our adoption laws.

Not at all. It's simply a fact of living in a liberal welfare state where a single mother can get paid handsomely via the domestic purposes benefit (DPB). Not all do (get paid handsomely), but there are abusers of the system out there.

For some women, going on the DPB is a much more preferable option to actually working. For some women, the DPB provides them with an option other than giving up a child they wouldn't otherwise be able to afford to keep.

Many years ago, a lot of adoptions were procured through the social stigma of having a child out of wedlock. This social stigma has been removed and systems like the DPB have been put in place. End result; fewer babies up for adoption meaning... the state of the adoption law has absolutely no bearing on the rate of adoptions. It's state does, however, have a significant bearing in relation to the OP's points.

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#398480 1-Nov-2010 12:20

gehenna: That doesn't stop them treating defacto relationships as equal to marriage in terms of financial equality.

Which brings up another aspect in the "inequality" debate - married couples. For instance: Married couple, both working, paying taxes etc. One loses their job...no welfare assistance.

The same will occur for a de facto couple if they have been silly enough to declare the de facto status to inland revenue, otherwise the out-of-work de-facto partner will receive welfare assistance.

What we have here is an inequality (via a legalised discrimination) in the rights of the married couple.

Teeps

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#398482 1-Nov-2010 12:27

Dratsab:
gehenna: That doesn't stop them treating defacto relationships as equal to marriage in terms of financial equality.

Which brings up another aspect?in the "inequality" debate - married couples.? For instance: Married couple, both working, paying taxes etc.? One loses their job...no welfare assistance.

The same will occur for a de facto couple if they have been silly enough to declare the de facto status to inland revenue, otherwise the out-of-work de-facto partner will receive welfare assistance.

What we have here is an inequality (via a legalised discrimination)?in the rights of the married couple.

Is that inequality though? What you're saying is a couple who is married or a couple in a de facto relationship both get treated the same? Sounds like equality to me. Just because a de facto couple could hide their status isn't an equality issue.

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#398491 1-Nov-2010 12:37

Teeps.

I dont see how giving same sex couples a right to a child - something that is not possible without help from the state - is about equality.

Also does the child get a choice as to whether it would like a Mother and Father vs 2 Mothers or 2 Fathers? Do we know how changing the natual order of things will affect these children in later life?

And as I stated earlier I have no problem with homosexuality in general - Just the adoption question.

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Dratsab

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#398495 1-Nov-2010 12:42

It's a bit hastily written so hasn't come across the best way. It's an inequality when contrasted against unmarried people, whether in a de facto relationship or not.

Teeps

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#398507 1-Nov-2010 13:06

geekiegeek: Teeps.

I dont see how giving same sex couples a right to a child - something that is not possible without help from the state - is about equality.

Also does the child get a choice as to whether it would like a Mother and Father vs 2 Mothers or 2 Fathers? Do we know how changing the natual order of things will affect these children in later life?

And as I stated earlier I have no problem with homosexuality in general - Just the adoption question.

Does a child get to choose it's birth parents? Of course they don't! Are these people naturally the best people to bring a child up? On the whole I would say yes, but there are definitely cases where this isn't so.

No one said the state had to give a child to a same sex couple, but not even considering a same sex couple as a viable parents to a child is wrong. There is no common sense reason why two guys or two girls cannot bring up a child, it's only peoples misconceptions about same sex relationships that make them believe that it would be wrong. What are suggesting for your reason that it would be wrong for a child?

I have been with my partner 22 years, we meet while at university and have been in a stable loving relationship ever since. We are legal guardians for each of our nieces and nephews and the children of some friends, and that's not because we are somehow felt sorry for, it is because we are recognized as two people who they know would be able to bring up the children in a secure and safe environment and know we would be good parents if the worst happened to them. They would not put the children that they'd move the earth to protect in our charge if they thought it would harm them in any way. These same children have been brought up knowing us as a couple and seeing us together, your suggestion is that this will somehow harm them later in life, I can only see it will do the opposite and show them that the world isn't just made up of heterosexual couples and they will be less blinkered with their view of the world. They are all growing into decent young people and I am very proud of them all.

Teeps

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#398512 1-Nov-2010 13:16

Dratsab: It's a bit hastily written so hasn't come across the best way. It's an inequality when contrasted against unmarried people, whether in a de facto relationship or not.

That is a difficult one to decide though as do you mean that anyone who is out of work, unmarried or married/de facto relationship should be able to claim welfare? How do you treat a family where one parent decides to stay at home? Should they naturally be paid for that decision? If so, income tax would have to go through the roof as anyone and everyone who decided they didn't want to work because they were already in a relationship could be paid for the privilege and the ones who did work would untimely be the ones paying, kind of the same thing really apart from they'd probably be paying for more than just their partner. Who would decide to work under these conditions? Yes it is harsh when one member of a double income family loses their job, and is very difficult for them to manage, and possibly more difficult than it is for a single person on welfare, but I just don't know how you can make a distinction between someone who is in a relationship who decides not to work compared to those who would like to and need to to get by.

tardtasticx

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#398580 1-Nov-2010 15:25

geekiegeek: I'm sorry but I dont think it is natural for a child to grow up with same sex parents. I am not a homophobe and have now problem at all with same sex marriage.

I'm also not a Christian and would actually consider myself very liberal. Its just that this does not sit right with me. I have close friends that are gay and want to go down this path and I just cant support them.

I'll now duck down behind my desk while the haters jump all over this post.

If your desk has a bunker underneath then yes go for it

tardtasticx

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#398585 1-Nov-2010 15:29

coffeebaron: It takes a man + woman to make a baby, so doesn't that tell you something about the way it should be??

Then why did they invent IVF?
What about test tube babies?
Look how long it took before they discovered electricity, doesn't that tell you something about the way it should be?

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tardtasticx

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#398587 1-Nov-2010 15:35

geekiegeek: Teeps.

I dont see how giving same sex couples a right to a child - something that is not possible without help from the state - is about equality.

Also does the child get a choice as to whether it would like a Mother and Father vs 2 Mothers or 2 Fathers? Do we know how changing the natual order of things will affect these children in later life?

And as I stated earlier I have no problem with homosexuality in general - Just the adoption question.

I didnt get to choose my birth parents, no child does. What makes adoption any different? And we know this wont have an adverse affect later on in life because they've done studies about it, google it. If anything it will be better for them because they'll grow up in a home where they know that not everyone is "normal" and its ok to be different from what society deems to be wrong. Not allowing gay couples the chance to adopt simply because they're gay is like saying a jewish couple cannot adopt a child because they're "bringing them up with immoral values." What about when a cat has kittens and some of the kittens are put up for adoption? We got our cat through adoption and he's turned out absolutely fine without a mother cat or a father cat.

bazzer

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#398592 1-Nov-2010 15:39

tardtasticx: What about when a cat has kittens and some of the kittens are put up for adoption? We got our cat through adoption and he's turned out absolutely fine without a mother cat or a father cat.

I'm 100% behind gay couples adopting kittens, as long as they promise to look after them well. For that matter, I also think cats (gay or otherwise) should be allowed to adopt babies. It's just discrimination otherwise...

P.S. For anyone who thinks a same-sex couple can't raise a child, watch the hilarious 80s sit-com, My Two Dads!

Teeps

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#398597 1-Nov-2010 15:42

bazzer:
tardtasticx: What about when a cat has kittens and some of the kittens are put up for adoption? We got our cat through adoption and he's turned out absolutely fine without a mother cat or a father cat.

I'm 100% behind gay couples adopting kittens, as long as they promise to look after them well.? For that matter, I also think cats (gay or otherwise) should be allowed to adopt babies.? It's just discrimination otherwise...

That's why we have the best looked after pets, so much love to give :-D

cgrew

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#398614 1-Nov-2010 16:10

geekiegeek:

Also does the child get a choice as to whether it would like a Mother and Father vs 2 Mothers or 2 Fathers? Do we know how changing the natual order of things will affect these children in later life?

I fully agree with what geekiegeek is saying here.

If I was a child brought up by two dudes I wouldn't be a happy chap that I can tell you.. Especially later in life with my high school years, imagine trying to deal with that? It's simply ridiculous that people here agree with same sex child adoption. Wake up. Before it's too late.

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