When will NZ get equal rights for ALL citizens?

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Forums › Politics › When will NZ get equal rights for ALL citizens?

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Ultimate Geek
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#398753 1-Nov-2010 19:50

kyhwana2:
DeroyBoy:
I think for some kids it could make their teenage years more difficult and that may not be fair to the child.

That is my only hesitation. I have no doubt that many gay people would make great parents, that is not in question for me.

Try being a gay teenager and see how hard it is then. (been there)

The reason "it's more difficult" is because of social attitudes (such as your own and other people) towards gay people that it would even be an issue.

The state doesn't have any kind of "final say" on how society should be, but giving official sanction towards gay marriage/adoption is just that and over time it will become normal, which is the entire point.

Don't put words in my mouth or suggest you know my social attitudes.

I agree as I have said in a previous post its only a matter of time before this whole discussion becomes irrelevant as change will come eventually.

DeroyBoy

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Ultimate Geek
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#398757 1-Nov-2010 19:56

tardtasticx:
DeroyBoy:
tardtasticx:
cgrew:
Teeps: The good thing is though that these children grow up with it being normal to have two parents of the same sex, their friends will grow up knowing the same, they will have done this from a very young age so what's to bully them about?

I agree with geekiegeek there in regards to why it is important to have a Mother and Father in a child’s upbringing.

And I strongly disagree with your last sentence there Teeps, in that instance the child is forced in to that situation.

I also want to apologise to tardtasticx for not spelling his name properly, that was a cheeky comment from my behalf but at the same time I don't appreciate being stereotyped.

Cheers
Conor

*Tardtasticx...

And you can say that a child who is born into a straight family is forced into that lifestyle as well. Children can't pick their parents, its a fact of life, its "unnatural".

I think that is starting to miss the point of all this. No kids don't get to pick the family they are born into and some end up in undesirable situations.

Adoption is totally different in that we as society can control the suitability of the parents who get the privilege of adopting children.

I generally support your view point but don't think comments like this add weight to the argument.

I said that because people are saying the adopted kids should be able to pick and choose who they want to adopt them. it doesnt work like that and if they changed it to that then its not really getting anywhere because the unfairness and inequality is still there

Agreed, but I don't think an adoption would or should proceed if it is against the wishes of the child.

geekiegeek

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#398767 1-Nov-2010 20:19

kyhwana2.

Where did I say that children that are in a single parent family should be removed by the state? I just stated that there is science to suggest that the lack of a parental figure of either sex "can" have an effect on a childs development.

No one has said here that it is wrong to be gay. I think you need to maybe just calm down and try not to feel personally attacked by this discussion as I (and I hope others) are not trying to put down you or any gay person's lifestyle\personal views etc. We are just discussing our own personal view on one aspect that affects both gay and hetrosexual people and sociaty as a whole.

My personal view is just that, mine. I dont expect everyone to share it. But we should be able to debate our various views in a healthy way - that to me is the only way you will see any change in peoples opinions on this or any other controversial issue.

Through this very debate some peoples minds may be changed to agree with you. But that wont happen if we get upset or start to attack each others views in a personal or overheated mannar as the mods will just end up locking the thread.

kyhwana2

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#398772 1-Nov-2010 20:27

geekiegeek: kyhwana2.

Where did I say that children that are in a single parent family should be removed by the state? I just stated that there is science to suggest that the lack of a parental figure of either sex "can" have an effect on a childs development.

You're suggesting that we don't let same sex couples adopt because "they're not as good as parents as straight couples" yes? And that's because in your ideal world every child would have a Mother and a Father to raise them.

If there are willing, capable gay couples that can adopt children, why shouldn't they be allowed to?
Whats a good reason why?

Teeps

501 posts

Ultimate Geek
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#398776 1-Nov-2010 20:29

geekiegeek: Through this very debate some peoples minds may be changed to agree with you. But that wont happen if we get upset or start to attack each others views in a personal or overheated mannar as the mods will just end up locking the thread.

I very much agree, it can be difficult at times when we all want to get a point across but please everyone don't talk in a manner that means the thread will get locked.

I would hope more tolerance and understanding to come from this thread rather than people just getting others backs up.

geekiegeek

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#398783 1-Nov-2010 20:43

kyhwana2 I think if you read my posts you will find that I have never said that as my reason. I dont think anyone has said that they believe gay people would make bad parents. I dont (myself) think that that is the issue at all.

Society is structured in a certain way at present and some members of that society are wanting to make some fairly big changes to the current structure. I dont think you can really expect that everyone is just going to agree with those changes straight away, if at all.

There has been a huge amount of change in the area of gay rights just within my lifetime and it takes a while for people to get used to these new ways of thinking.

I may even change my mind in the future but at this point in time in regards to the adoption issue this is the way I feel.

Its awesome that we live in a free country and we can agree to disagree. We also live in a democracy so if enough people share your view you may see change.

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kyhwana2

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#398785 1-Nov-2010 20:52

geekiegeek: kyhwana2 I think if you read my posts you will find that I have never said that as my reason. I dont think anyone has said that they believe gay people would make bad parents. I dont (myself) think that that is the issue at all.

Society is structured in a certain way at present and some members of that society are wanting to make some fairly big changes to the current structure. I dont think you can really expect that everyone is just going to agree with those changes straight away, if at all.

There has been a huge amount of change in the area of gay rights just within my lifetime and it takes a while for people to get used to these new ways of thinking.

I may even change my mind in the future but at this point in time in regards to the adoption issue this is the way I feel.

Its awesome that we live in a free country and we can agree to disagree. We also live in a democracy so if enough people share your view you may see change.

Change is never easy but I don't see how this is a big change at all? Maybe you could explain.
Apparently the adoption law is pretty old and could do with some updating. If it doesn't include same sex couples, do you expect us to wait another 40-50 years before we would legally be able to adopt children?

It's fine for people who have rights to tell other people who don't have those same rights to "just wait, it will change" but apparently it's not OK to keep pushing for change.
If we don't keep pushing for change, nothing will ever change.

Teeps

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Ultimate Geek
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#398786 1-Nov-2010 20:53

geekiegeek: kyhwana2 I think if you read my posts you will find that I have never said that as my reason. I dont think anyone has said that they believe gay people would make bad parents. I dont (myself) think that that is the issue at all.

To be fair you did say it wasn't natural and the only natural way for parenting is a man and a woman and that is the only way it should be so I can see where khywana2 is going there. I know it is an extension to the point you were making but it is a logical extension.

As for us being happy that we have got this far and having to wait for others to accept us, why should we have to do that? Being gay is as natural as being straight, why as gay people we have to hold back and wait for straight people to accept us I have never understood!

tardtasticx

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#398787 1-Nov-2010 20:55

geekiegeek: kyhwana2 I think if you read my posts you will find that I have never said that as my reason. I dont think anyone has said that they believe gay people would make bad parents. I dont (myself) think that that is the issue at all.

Society is structured in a certain way at present and some members of that society are wanting to make some fairly big changes to the current structure. I dont think you can really expect that everyone is just going to agree with those changes straight away, if at all.

There has been a huge amount of change in the area of gay rights just within my lifetime and it takes a while for people to get used to these new ways of thinking.

I may even change my mind in the future but at this point in time in regards to the adoption issue this is the way I feel.

Its awesome that we live in a free country and we can agree to disagree. We also live in a democracy so if enough people share your view you may see change.

Yep I see what you mean, but we're in a country of 4.5Million people, and I think (I saw an NZHerald article and they had a poll on there about gay people being allowed to adopt and over 50% of people who voted said they would vote no if asked if they should allow it) that the majority of people would say no. one person said before that last year we had <30 adoptions in total. If we enabled gay people to adopt then we could have a fighting chance just like everyone else. Whats the worst that could happen?

kyhwana2

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#398790 1-Nov-2010 20:56

Teeps:
geekiegeek: kyhwana2 I think if you read my posts you will find that I have never said that as my reason. I dont think anyone has said that they believe gay people would make bad parents. I dont (myself) think that that is the issue at all.

To be fair you did say it wasn't natural and the only natural way for parenting in a man and a woman and that is the only way it should be so I can see where khywana2 is going there. I know it is an extension to the point you were making but it is a logical extension.

I've yet to hear a decent/proper argument re: homosexuality being unnatural.

I wonder what these peoples definition of natural is?
It seems to be that "unnatural" is the same as "Oh (my) god says that is bad" and if you ask Why, then you just get "Oh because god says it is", which is really just code for "I say it is/have been brainwashed into thinking it's bad"

"It's unnatural because I say it is"

kyhwana2

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#398791 1-Nov-2010 20:57

tardtasticx: If we enabled gay people to adopt then we could have a fighting chance just like everyone else. Whats the worst that could happen?

Hell itself would open up and men would be marrying horses and girls marrying their cats! Cats and dogs living in harmony! Madness! Chaos!

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DeroyBoy

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Ultimate Geek
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#398793 1-Nov-2010 21:00

Teeps:
geekiegeek: kyhwana2 I think if you read my posts you will find that I have never said that as my reason. I dont think anyone has said that they believe gay people would make bad parents. I dont (myself) think that that is the issue at all.

To be fair you did say it wasn't natural and the only natural way for parenting is a man and a woman and that is the only way it should be so I can see where khywana2 is going there. I know it is an extension to the point you were making but it is a logical extension.

As for us being happy that we have got this far and having to wait for others to accept us, why should we have to do that? Being gay is as natural as being straight, why as gay people we have to hold back and wait for straight people to accept us I have never understood!

That is how a democracy works, it is a far from perfect system but it is better than any of the others.
Its is ok to push for change, but you just have to respect others have the right to push against it and you need to convince a majority before anything will happen.

Teeps

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Ultimate Geek
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#398794 1-Nov-2010 21:03

kyhwana2: I've yet to hear a decent/proper argument re: homosexuality being unnatural.

I wonder what these peoples definition of natural is?
It seems to be that "unnatural" is the same as "Oh (my) god says that is bad" and if you ask Why, then you just get "Oh because god says it is", which is really just code for "I say it is/have been brainwashed into thinking it's bad"

"It's unnatural because I say it is"

Which is why I've questioned peoples reasons in this thread as to why they believe we should not be able to adopt. I will listen to someones reasoning (I'm not saying I accept it but I will listen to why they believe what they do) but on the whole (I'm not saying everyone) there is no reason at all, it's just 'because', that doesn't help me understand why they believe what they do so I am unlikely to accept their point of view

tardtasticx

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#398796 1-Nov-2010 21:05

But the current laws banning gays from marriage are based entirely on religious beliefs. If a law is based around religion, then the government needs to make a lenience for the minority. Laws need to be based around facts that can be actually proven.

geekiegeek

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#398797 1-Nov-2010 21:05

Homosexualtiy is not unnatural and is not a problem as far as I am concerned.

The reason I used the wording of unnatuarl is in relation to the fact that without adoption there is no natual way for a gay couple to have children. You cant really argue against that as fact.

so to reiterate my personal view. I feel that society should not change this natural law just because we can and some would like it changed. I have no issue with gay marriage or equal rights for gay people in any other respect. Whether gay people would make good parents or not is also not my point at all.

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