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networkn
Networkn
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  #1289519 22-Apr-2015 16:18
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freitasm:
networkn:
SaltyNZ:
networkn:

Let's cut to the chase then, in your opinion, what should happen now? Putting aside everything EXCEPT the fact he is PM and he pulled this girls hair, what should his punishment be?



The power imbalance is the key (no pun intended) here. If it was me (just some random guy) who pulled her hair, and kept doing it, I'd expect to be told off by her, and her manager, and possibly asked not to come back to the cafe again. I probably wouldn't expect to get arrested over it, and if I was, I'd expect the police would probably give me a good frightening and then let me go.

But this man is the Prime Minister, and he arrives with an escort of minders and bodyguards. When it's him that does it, the dynamic is completely different. This is a man that you could easily expect to make your life a living hell if you crossed him - rightly or wrongly; this is NZ after all, there are limits - but in any case he's the most powerful man in the country. You cannot get any more intimidating by your mere presence without openly carrying a gun. There is absolutely no way he doesn't know that. And without wanting to go all Spiderman, with great power comes great responsibility. We just should not see men or women in his position doing such inappropriate and immature things in public, and he must know that. 

I honestly don't know what the punishment should be. Should he be sacked over it? I think that's a bridge too far, and let's be honest, it's not going to happen so it's pointless to even speculate. But at the very least he needs to be humble and apologise properly and sincerely about it - genuinely humble and apologetic, in private, not just 'to be seen as' in public with a hundred cameras to document his magnificent speech. I think that's the one thing he would struggle with the most, because I think he's an arrogant so-and-so, and therefore the most appropriate response.


Interesting because I wouldn't characterise him as particularly arrogant related to this situation. I believe he has apologized, but only she will likely know if that was heartfelt. (I believe he is a decent person and wouldn't have wanted to frighten or hurt her) One thing I know is that he wouldn't be doing it again. If he did then I'd expect more serious consequence.

I think he is now clear about how it's been perceived regardless of how it was intended. (Which I honestly believe was innocent and non sexual).

I seriously doubt he could or would make her life a living hell, unless she is lying in which case I'd expect him to call her out on it, and I'd expect HER to be facing consequences.


The way you put the uppercase word "HER" it makes it look like you don't believe her story, or wish the story was not as it is being told.




Well that certainly an interesting take on what I said, but to clarify, there is no such intent. 





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  #1289520 22-Apr-2015 16:19
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networkn:
KiwiNZ:
networkn:
SaltyNZ:
surfisup1000: a completely different situation but you know that I think. 


Well, you're right; on the one hand we have a situation where the hair-puller would get a short sharp arresting, and on the other we have the Prime Minister of New Zealand pulling the hair of a woman who works in a cafe.

Let me repeat that: the Prime Minister of New Zealand pulling the hair of a woman who works in a cafe.

In what universe is that the kind of thing we want our Prime Minister to be doing? Should he start crumpling empty Lion Red cans on the foreheads of random men he walks past and call them Bruce? Where exactly do we draw the line on what is and is not Prime-Ministerly public behaviour?


Let's cut to the chase then, in your opinion, what should happen now? Putting aside everything EXCEPT the fact he is PM and he pulled this girls hair, what should his punishment be?



If the circumstances are as presented and one could assume that given his apology they are  then he should resign.


Wow. Just WOW. Well I asked I guess.



If there is no repercussions for his actions it will be seen as tacit approval of his actions by others in our society. He chose to be the Nations Leader therefore he must act accordingly.

andrew027
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  #1289521 22-Apr-2015 16:22
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freitasm:
andrew027:
freitasm: I voted for Mr Key twice. I will probably not vote for him again.

Assuming your decision is based on this story, that’s exactly the reaction the blogger was hoping for.


Not only based on this story. But based on all his actions in the last two or three years. His non-committal comments when someone points something wrong in the government, the smug attitude when talking down other politicians, and other things. 

That's fair enough. I'm not voting National next time either, based primarily on how I have no say on issues like TPPA, GCSB, selling state assets, etc. but am allowed to tell the government whether I want a new flag. [Off-topic: If New Zealand's national flag becomes a black rectangle with a white fern on it, I'm giving my citizenship back.] 



benokobi
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  #1289526 22-Apr-2015 16:24
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"We are protecting her identity so she is not punished by her employer" ... Do they have more than one employee complaining about John Key pulling their hair?

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#1289538 22-Apr-2015 16:27
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andrew027: 
[Off-topic: If New Zealand's national flag becomes a black rectangle with a white fern on it, I'm giving my citizenship back.] 


How about a black flag with a blond ponytail?


  #1289542 22-Apr-2015 16:28
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The more I think about it the more preposterous this whole thing is. He tugged on a woman's hair. It was playful, silly, maybe even childish, and people are talking about 'sexual assaults' etc...ridiculous. I understand people are talking about 'the law' as it is written, but a bit of common sense is required.

This whole things seems like a beat up. Why has it taken so long for this info to come out? Why was it a left wing blog that 'exposed' the truth? Why just a few days out from ANZAC Day?

From the Stuff story...

 

Key said he apologised because at that point he realised she had actually taken offence. 

 

"It was all in the context of a bit of banter that was going on, and so obviously I immediately apologised for that. 

 

"She thanked me for that and said 'that's all fine, no drama'"

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/67949918/prime-minister-john-key-pulled-waitress-ponytail

She probably talked about this with a left leaning friend and they have convinced her to leak the story. It really has created a storm in a tea cup. I'm sure this poor woman is regretting talking about it because she knows that it's no big deal.

It's hardly a Darren Hughes or Richard Worth situation.

networkn
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  #1289546 22-Apr-2015 16:32
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If there is no repercussions for his actions it will be seen as tacit approval of his actions by others in our society. He chose to be the Nations Leader therefore he must act accordingly.


He has had ramifications but not as extreme as you'd suggest.

Your suggestion that the nation is now going to start pulling hair and expecting it's ok, is patently ridiculous and if you don't believe me, I challenge you to ask the next 10 people you see the following question, and report back the answers.

"Now that John Key has pulled the hair of a waitress and the only consequence was the requirement for a few bottles of wine and an apology, will you now proceed to pull hair and expect it's ok"


 
 
 

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networkn
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  #1289549 22-Apr-2015 16:35
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Suggestions comparing John Key to Michael Jackson (Who it's worth noting was found innocent of the charges brought against him), and Rolfe Harris, make me despair for our fine nation.

MikeB4
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  #1289551 22-Apr-2015 16:36
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networkn:


If there is no repercussions for his actions it will be seen as tacit approval of his actions by others in our society. He chose to be the Nations Leader therefore he must act accordingly.


He has had ramifications but not as extreme as you'd suggest.

Your suggestion that the nation is now going to start pulling hair and expecting it's ok, is patently ridiculous and if you don't believe me, I challenge you to ask the next 10 people you see the following question, and report back the answers.

"Now that John Key has pulled the hair of a waitress and the only consequence was the requirement for a few bottles of wine and an apology, will you now proceed to pull hair and expect it's ok"



I guess you have no idea how long and how hard the battle against sexual harassment has been.

networkn
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  #1289557 22-Apr-2015 16:41
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KiwiNZ:
networkn:


If there is no repercussions for his actions it will be seen as tacit approval of his actions by others in our society. He chose to be the Nations Leader therefore he must act accordingly.


He has had ramifications but not as extreme as you'd suggest.

Your suggestion that the nation is now going to start pulling hair and expecting it's ok, is patently ridiculous and if you don't believe me, I challenge you to ask the next 10 people you see the following question, and report back the answers.

"Now that John Key has pulled the hair of a waitress and the only consequence was the requirement for a few bottles of wine and an apology, will you now proceed to pull hair and expect it's ok"



I guess you have no idea how long and how hard the battle against sexual harassment has been.


So you won't be asking that question and reporting back the answer? I didn't think so. 

Personally I think you are getting a little carried away with the drama. It seems to be out of perspective.

"She thanked me for that and said 'that's all fine, no drama'"

Does it sound like she felt sexually violated, or that this will carry with her for the rest of her life and affect her relationships from now on in? It doesn't sound that way to me.




MikeB4
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  #1289566 22-Apr-2015 16:48
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networkn:
KiwiNZ:
networkn:


If there is no repercussions for his actions it will be seen as tacit approval of his actions by others in our society. He chose to be the Nations Leader therefore he must act accordingly.


He has had ramifications but not as extreme as you'd suggest.

Your suggestion that the nation is now going to start pulling hair and expecting it's ok, is patently ridiculous and if you don't believe me, I challenge you to ask the next 10 people you see the following question, and report back the answers.

"Now that John Key has pulled the hair of a waitress and the only consequence was the requirement for a few bottles of wine and an apology, will you now proceed to pull hair and expect it's ok"



I guess you have no idea how long and how hard the battle against sexual harassment has been.


So you won't be asking that question and reporting back the answer? I didn't think so. 

Personally I think you are getting a little carried away with the drama. It seems to be out of perspective.

"She thanked me for that and said 'that's all fine, no drama'"

Does it sound like she felt sexually violated, or that this will carry with her for the rest of her life and affect her relationships from now on in? It doesn't sound that way to me.





unbelievable

benokobi
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  #1289568 22-Apr-2015 16:50
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KiwiNZ:
networkn:
KiwiNZ:
networkn:


If there is no repercussions for his actions it will be seen as tacit approval of his actions by others in our society. He chose to be the Nations Leader therefore he must act accordingly.


He has had ramifications but not as extreme as you'd suggest.

Your suggestion that the nation is now going to start pulling hair and expecting it's ok, is patently ridiculous and if you don't believe me, I challenge you to ask the next 10 people you see the following question, and report back the answers.

"Now that John Key has pulled the hair of a waitress and the only consequence was the requirement for a few bottles of wine and an apology, will you now proceed to pull hair and expect it's ok"



I guess you have no idea how long and how hard the battle against sexual harassment has been.


So you won't be asking that question and reporting back the answer? I didn't think so. 

Personally I think you are getting a little carried away with the drama. It seems to be out of perspective.

"She thanked me for that and said 'that's all fine, no drama'"

Does it sound like she felt sexually violated, or that this will carry with her for the rest of her life and affect her relationships from now on in? It doesn't sound that way to me.





unbelievable


If she said that tit was all fine to him she shouldn't have released all this publically and make a big deal about it.

networkn
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  #1289569 22-Apr-2015 16:52
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Has this thread run it's course yet? :) 


BigMal
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  #1289579 22-Apr-2015 17:03
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Out of interest does anyone here play with the hair of waitresses in cafes?  I can't think of an appropriate time to do it, I don't even consider it playful.  When would playing with a waitresses hair ever be considered playful?  It's definitely weird.  He probably shouldn't lose his job but he should probably see a psychiatrist or something.

NZCrusader
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  #1289591 22-Apr-2015 17:14
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Ok people...

Note #1
If this case goes to court, it would get thrown out.
There was never any malice or criminal intent at any time.
(From an employment lawyer friend)


Note #2
Employment lawyer in the media just wants 5 mins in the spotlight. (Advertising is expensive these days - free opportunity is win)


Note #3
Key ceased physical contact after complainant announced she didn't like it.


Note #4
Complainant accepted Key's apology.


Note #5
Complainant only wants her 5 mins in the spotlight, despite the issue being resolved privately.


Note #6
As per usual, large motivation here from the Left, which thinks it can get people to vote for them by bagging Right wing parties.
They still haven't cottoned on that people will only vote for the party, if they have good policies and a plan.

If you have nothing better, don't criticise the opposition until you do.




End Result
No court case.
No assault.
Temporary PR damage for National and Key.
Left wing parties will still continue the same old s**t.







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