Nope to dope or toot toot?

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Awrrr
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#2577110 1-Oct-2020 11:15

dejadeadnz:

And given the way the polls are going, the proponent of legalisation looks to have made an amateur hour "All or nothing!" political mistake: there should have been an alternate option for decriminalisation only.

This I fully agree with.

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dejadeadnz

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#2577111 1-Oct-2020 11:18

Rikkitic:

I am not questioning the legitimacy. I am questioning the morality. To my mind, using a minor charge to get someone for one thing because you can't get him for something else that you think he might be guilty of, is perverting the course of justice.

No offence but what's perverting the course of justice isn't a matter of opinion. Even if it were, how has justice been "sidetracked" when someone is proven guilty of something that they are... actually guilty of? The bad motivations might rightly be a moral concern and reflect poorly on the individuals concerned but that's not a perversion of the course of justice.

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#2578335 2-Oct-2020 21:42

Rikkitic:

This I fully agree with.

And the rank amateur tactics of the Greens with the cannabis reform has caused me to reverse my original plan to vote for them. And it appears that, amongst my social circles, I am not alone. For the first time in my life I will cast a party vote for Labour, which isn't exactly a small decision for someone resolutely against the influences of the trade unions upon Labour.

There's no point in having the best politics or intentions, if these people aren't prepared to act like adults and learn to compromise of deal with real politik. If there were a smallest of chance that a "yes" vote from me could make a difference, I'd put aside my reservations about legalisation and vote "yes". But the "Nos" will win by a landslide. It's an absolute disgrace that no decriminalisation option has been offered.

Handle9

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#2578709 3-Oct-2020 19:26

This is an interesting article about the politics of the NZMA. It's fairly curious that they have taken a strong position without consulting the membership.

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/427482/cannabis-referendum-medical-association-failed-to-its-consult-members-doctor

ezbee

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#2580923 7-Oct-2020 21:17

I'm leaning toward voting yes for the decriminalisation, but unsure on the rest of it.

My prediction is if it passes the Government will get a lot of stick for problems that will continue.
A smart move by Government would be increasing funding for addiction, mental health and other related services.
While we won't have people getting criminal records for cannabis which will be great.

Take money out of gangs 'yeh right'.
Gangs are not going away, so avoiding sales taxes, selling to kids, stronger THC,
synthetics that pass workplace drug tests ( More profitable as its more addictive ) will still feed them.
Perhaps bigger gang market, with bigger overall market those on the edge who want something better gets bigger.

Children, I remember the synthetic shops close to schools that opened early to sell to over 18s just who sold to a ready market passing by going to school.

Workplaces, cannabis and dangerous equipment, managing this with larger population of users.
We will even more so become a nation that relies on importing machine operators, truckies, tradies, etc ?
Lost to generations of New Zealanders who would normally have productive well paid work.

Driving, While there are roadside tests for drugged drivers, well they are expensive, more time consuming,
and problematic as this hangs around in the system.
Alcohol tests are cheap, quick and you clear it from you body relatively quickly, so representative of your incapacity.

The unregulated nature of our 'natural' health , well expect all sorts of spurious claims.
Who knows where this may go the miracles claimed.

Economic boom time, only works while competition is low, this grows well in many places.

Its going to be a wild ride as expectation is that all the problems will go away , I'm not so sure.

Edit, Spellcheker would prefer I vote for decimalization, but that ship sailed.

networkn

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#2580982 8-Oct-2020 00:36

ezbee:

I'm leaning toward voting yes for the decriminalisation, but unsure on the rest of it.

I don't think that's an option. It's simply do you support the bill to legalize cannabis. To know what you are agreeing to, you'd need to read the bill.

All or nothing.

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Fred99

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#2581048 8-Oct-2020 08:52

The bill is "legalisation and control"

It seems to be being suggested that "legalisation" = every corner dairy having cannabis for sale to school kids.

Where there's been legalisation/decriminalisation it hasn't caused the problems the "no" vote proponents claim will happen here.

networkn

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#2581052 8-Oct-2020 09:11

Fred99:

The bill is "legalisation and control"

It seems to be being suggested that "legalisation" = every corner dairy having cannabis for sale to school kids.

Where there's been legalisation/decriminalisation it hasn't caused the problems the "no" vote proponents claim will happen here.

To be fair, last time I was in California, dispensaries seemed to be more common that 7/11's :)

Rikkitic

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#2581075 8-Oct-2020 09:54

ezbee:

I'm leaning toward voting yes for the decriminalisation, but unsure on the rest of it.

Allow me to persuade you.

My prediction is if it passes the Government will get a lot of stick for problems that will continue.
A smart move by Government would be increasing funding for addiction, mental health and other related services.
While we won't have people getting criminal records for cannabis which will be great.

+1

Take money out of gangs 'yeh right'.
Gangs are not going away, so avoiding sales taxes, selling to kids, stronger THC,
synthetics that pass workplace drug tests ( More profitable as its more addictive ) will still feed them.
Perhaps bigger gang market, with bigger overall market those on the edge who want something better gets bigger.

Legal pot certainly won't make gangs bigger. They also won't disappear but at least it reduces one source of their income. I expect it will make things better. I don't see how it would make them worse as far as this aspect goes.

Children, I remember the synthetic shops close to schools that opened early to sell to over 18s just who sold to a ready market passing by going to school.

Synthetics were the dumbest thing authorities (Dunne!) ever allowed to happen. If pot had been legal, they never would have taken off.

Workplaces, cannabis and dangerous equipment, managing this with larger population of users.
We will even more so become a nation that relies on importing machine operators, truckies, tradies, etc ?
Lost to generations of New Zealanders who would normally have productive well paid work.

I think this is a problem looking for a reason. Every worker in the country is not going to suddenly become a pothead. Most people are responsible. That won't change. Doesn't workplace drug testing already exist? Cannabis use is already as widespread in this country as it will ever be. Legalising it won't change that.

Driving, While there are roadside tests for drugged drivers, well they are expensive, more time consuming,
and problematic as this hangs around in the system.
Alcohol tests are cheap, quick and you clear it from you body relatively quickly, so representative of your incapacity.

People who are going to drive stoned already do. As with alcohol, cannabis testing will improve over time as it becomes more widespread. Responsible users will learn their limits, just as they do with alcohol.

The unregulated nature of our 'natural' health , well expect all sorts of spurious claims.
Who knows where this may go the miracles claimed.

I don't get this point. Medical use already exists. Spurious claims are made about everything, from purple rice to colloidal silver. Cannabis mellows you. It relieves some forms of pain. You can call that a miracle if you want to.

Economic boom time, only works while competition is low, this grows well in many places.

Competition 'weeds' out (excuse the pun) inefficient producers. Most people are too lazy or too busy to grow their own. There will be a market and it will be taxed. The economics won't change.

Its going to be a wild ride as expectation is that all the problems will go away , I'm not so sure.

Of course all problems won't go away. But some major injustices will and the police can focus on doing things that matter. That is not a bad thing.

Edit, Spellcheker would prefer I vote for decimalization, but that ship sailed.

It is unfortunate that decriminalisation was not an option, but legalisation is still better than keeping it criminal.

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

Rikkitic

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#2581077 8-Oct-2020 09:56

networkn:

To be fair, last time I was in California, dispensaries seemed to be more common that 7/11's :)

California is not, not, not New Zealand. Not even close. Has it been legalised there or are the dispensaries just for 'medical' use?

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

networkn

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#2581086 8-Oct-2020 10:08

Rikkitic:

1) If pot had been legal, they never would have taken off.

2) Cannabis testing will improve over time as it becomes more widespread. Responsible users will learn their limits, just as they do with alcohol.

3) Cannabis mellows you. It relieves some forms of pain. You can call that a miracle if you want to.

1) I couldn't disagree more.

2) Given legalization is widespread, surely those tests already exist and are cheap so why don't we use what others use? If those things aren't true, then we could wait until they are.

3) And no other health related issues exist for it? Way to paint a one sided picture.

Economic boom time, only works while competition is low, this grows well in many places.

I suggest policing the legalization and regulation will chew up most of the economic benefits, though I guess it employs people and takes that income from the criminals. I expect they will just find other illicit things to sell.

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networkn

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#2581088 8-Oct-2020 10:09

Rikkitic:

networkn:

To be fair, last time I was in California, dispensaries seemed to be more common that 7/11's :)

California is not, not, not New Zealand. Not even close. Has it been legalised there or are the dispensaries just for 'medical' use?

It was easier to find weed than Milk was my point (not quite, but seemed close).

You can't point at other places who have legalized it, as a justification of legalization, and then when people point out the issues that exist as a result of legalization in those places, say NZ isn't the same.

Fred99

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#2581091 8-Oct-2020 10:13

Rikkitic:

networkn:

To be fair, last time I was in California, dispensaries seemed to be more common that 7/11's :)

California is not, not, not New Zealand. Not even close. Has it been legalised there or are the dispensaries just for 'medical' use?

Well there are 1780 7-Eleven outlets in California (plus countless other grocery stores), 4,765 licensed bars and clubs, and 661 "cannabis dispensaries". Yes it's been legalised, but there are certain issues with federal law affecting business banking, finance etc.

There are supposedly 300,000 gang members in California, most of whom receive generous funding through sale of illicit drugs. They kill innocent people as well as each other in "turf wars", target children as recruits and "customers" and it's been going on "big time" since the universal global failure of the "war on drugs" started. Well planned and executed legalisation / decriminalisation will reduce harm.

networkn

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#2581094 8-Oct-2020 10:15

Fred99:

Well there are 1780 7-Eleven outlets in California (plus countless other grocery stores), 4,765 licensed bars and clubs, and 661 "cannabis dispensaries". Yes it's been legalised, but there are certain issues with federal law affecting business banking, finance etc.

There are supposedly 300,000 gang members in California, most of whom receive generous funding through sale of illicit drugs. They kill innocent people as well as each other in "turf wars", target children as recruits and "customers" and it's been going on "big time" since the universal global failure of the "war on drugs" started. Well planned and executed legalisation / decriminalisation will reduce harm.

So your argument is, California did it badly, but NZ will do it well?

I have a bridge you might be interested in buying BTW :)

Fred99

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#2581098 8-Oct-2020 10:23

networkn:

You can't point at other places who have legalized it, as a justification of legalization, and then when people point out the issues that exist as a result of legalization in those places, say NZ isn't the same.

You actually can't point out any issues with legalisation except your dislike of seeing cannabis sale "out in the open". Nobody who wanted to obtain cannabis in California (or NZ) has had much of a problem obtaining it illegally, the worst problem was that your children were by default in contact with criminals, and in NZ in particular where cannabis was in short supply, those criminals would far rather "push" methamphetamine and/or other infinitely more harmful, addictive, and profitable products.

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