What will happen to National now?

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#3079809 26-May-2023 14:29

sir1963:
Handle9:

The posts aren’t anti landlord. As a landlord I don’t feel remotely attacked by them.

So you are happy with the idea that you should be taxed out of existence and are nothing but a plague on society ?

It’s an investment not a marriage. It doesn’t bother me at all, if the numbers don’t stack up then I’ll move my money to other assets, which is the point of the policy. There’s plenty of things to invest it.

I’ll come out fine.

mudguard

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#3079829 26-May-2023 16:31

I wonder if is possible or even desirable to write legislation that turns a secured housing loan into something similar to any other kind of loan to purchase something.

IE the price or value of the house is fixed at the time of purchase. Say you buy for $800,000, then that value isn't allowed to change for the duration of the loan. It would probably kill a lot of the subsequent property purchase. As I'm assuming most who are buying a second property or bach aren't putting down 20% deposits in their own cash. I suspect it will often be using equity in an existing property. Say the $800k house is now $1.4M, oh we'll take $300k out of that and put it towards a bach purchase.

I'm trying to think of the implications. Obviously it's different to say a car loan where the car depreciates into the earth over the course of the loan. But pulling equity out would be much more difficult. Not really a National problem so I should probably go find the housing thread.

tdgeek

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#3079866 26-May-2023 17:54

mudguard:

I wonder if is possible or even desirable to write legislation that turns a secured housing loan into something similar to any other kind of loan to purchase something.

IE the price or value of the house is fixed at the time of purchase. Say you buy for $800,000, then that value isn't allowed to change for the duration of the loan. It would probably kill a lot of the subsequent property purchase. As I'm assuming most who are buying a second property or bach aren't putting down 20% deposits in their own cash. I suspect it will often be using equity in an existing property. Say the $800k house is now $1.4M, oh we'll take $300k out of that and put it towards a bach purchase.

I'm trying to think of the implications. Obviously it's different to say a car loan where the car depreciates into the earth over the course of the loan. But pulling equity out would be much more difficult. Not really a National problem so I should probably go find the housing thread.

I think its a slippery slope when you want to regulate wealth. Could stocks and shares be managed the same? I bought a farm for $xxx 40 years ago, its now worth $xxx but its the same farm, what then?? (Example)

I get your point, but IMHO its fiddling around the edges for what in NZ is a long standing issue. IIRC NZ has about 1.6 million home owners. Are they all investors and need to be managed? Say I bought a business for $10k, added 100k over time, then I sold it or its worth 15M, then what?

If there is a problem, solve the problem, dont penalise the next generation. Example, bought a house for 5000 pounds. Its now worth $1.4M, then what? Ok im stretching it but its really the same question. Perhaps ban capital gain (somehow) Even thats an issue, as what is capital gain?

But an interesting question M

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#3079944 27-May-2023 08:08

https://www.stuff.co.nz/bay-of-plenty/300890230/they-should-be-in-english-national-to-ditch-te-reo-traffic-signs

God, I hate Simeon Brown. He comes across (to me) as such a smarmy git. Granted, while he's no Jared Kushner, I fail to see how this is helping anyone - what's wrong with signs being in two languages? This happens everywhere in the world. Maybe he needs to do something for attention and decided to focus on this?

Luxon said that there was “a problem” with the level of te reo Māori used in government departments, and that people had concerns - Luxon doesn't help with (incorrect) statements like this either. This feels like Trump and his "everyone is talking about it" drivel, where "everyone" was the 9 people in his inner circle that he saw every day, telling him what he wanted to hear 😠

Also from Stuff: https://www.stuff.co.nz/opinion/132153848/national-figures-now-quietly-admit-theyve-got-a-luxon-challenge--can-he-improve

sir1963

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#3079953 27-May-2023 09:43

quickymart:

https://www.stuff.co.nz/bay-of-plenty/300890230/they-should-be-in-english-national-to-ditch-te-reo-traffic-signs

God, I hate Simeon Brown. He comes across (to me) as such a smarmy git. Granted, while he's no Jared Kushner, I fail to see how this is helping anyone - what's wrong with signs being in two languages? This happens everywhere in the world. Maybe he needs to do something for attention and decided to focus on this?

Luxon said that there was “a problem” with the level of te reo Māori used in government departments, and that people had concerns - Luxon doesn't help with (incorrect) statements like this either. This feels like Trump and his "everyone is talking about it" drivel, where "everyone" was the 9 people in his inner circle that he saw every day, telling him what he wanted to hear 😠

Also from Stuff: https://www.stuff.co.nz/opinion/132153848/national-figures-now-quietly-admit-theyve-got-a-luxon-challenge--can-he-improve

I will be learning Maori along with our Grandson.

The ONLY thing I find offensive is that at work you can get paid more for speaking Te Reo (no objection to this) BUT there is no such payment for being able to "speak" NZ sign language.

NZ sign is also a legal language in NZ and the people who use it can not function without it, it is not a choice.

sir1963

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#3079954 27-May-2023 09:46

tdgeek:

mudguard:

I wonder if is possible or even desirable to write legislation that turns a secured housing loan into something similar to any other kind of loan to purchase something.

IE the price or value of the house is fixed at the time of purchase. Say you buy for $800,000, then that value isn't allowed to change for the duration of the loan. It would probably kill a lot of the subsequent property purchase. As I'm assuming most who are buying a second property or bach aren't putting down 20% deposits in their own cash. I suspect it will often be using equity in an existing property. Say the $800k house is now $1.4M, oh we'll take $300k out of that and put it towards a bach purchase.

I'm trying to think of the implications. Obviously it's different to say a car loan where the car depreciates into the earth over the course of the loan. But pulling equity out would be much more difficult. Not really a National problem so I should probably go find the housing thread.

I think its a slippery slope when you want to regulate wealth. Could stocks and shares be managed the same? I bought a farm for $xxx 40 years ago, its now worth $xxx but its the same farm, what then?? (Example)

I get your point, but IMHO its fiddling around the edges for what in NZ is a long standing issue. IIRC NZ has about 1.6 million home owners. Are they all investors and need to be managed? Say I bought a business for $10k, added 100k over time, then I sold it or its worth 15M, then what?

If there is a problem, solve the problem, dont penalise the next generation. Example, bought a house for 5000 pounds. Its now worth $1.4M, then what? Ok im stretching it but its really the same question. Perhaps ban capital gain (somehow) Even thats an issue, as what is capital gain?

But an interesting question M

If you try and regulate wealth, the those who are best at creating it will simply go elsewhere.

I am told a local supermarket was sold for over $30 Million in the last year or so.

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mudguard

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#3080033 27-May-2023 12:33

sir1963:

If you try and regulate wealth, the those who are best at creating it will simply go elsewhere.

I am told a local supermarket was sold for over $30 Million in the last year or so.

But the best thing about that is they can't take the house with them...

mudguard

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#3080035 27-May-2023 12:40

tdgeek:

I think its a slippery slope when you want to regulate wealth. Could stocks and shares be managed the same? I bought a farm for $xxx 40 years ago, its now worth $xxx but its the same farm, what then?? (Example)

I think the thing is, there isn't really a shortage or issue with Ferrari's, art or stocks. No one really needs those. But we all need a place to live. That's probably why it's looked at so closely.

tdgeek:

If there is a problem, solve the problem, dont penalise the next generation. Example, bought a house for 5000 pounds. Its now worth $1.4M, then what? Ok im stretching it but its really the same question.

Obviously this is a thorny issue. Who do you penalise? Currently it's whichever Gen is coming next. As for the farm example, maybe if capital gains is brought in, draw a line and say it will be at the CV as of the 1st of December 2023 or whatever and charge the 39% after that.

I heard and interesting example of how the Queenstown Lakes District is treating some of the big farms around the area. Currently with zoning type, a lot of those ye olde high country farms are essentially worthless. Over run with rabbits, can't grow much or graze etc. But the interest the council rezones it to permit a subdivision, it's worth mega bucks. So the council gets something like 5% of the land, or it's value, for affordable housing.

Which I thought was pretty cool. I mean the council represents the community really, and if one pen stroke is going to make you a millionaire, then you get to give back to the community.

sir1963

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#3080051 27-May-2023 13:21

mudguard:

sir1963:

If you try and regulate wealth, the those who are best at creating it will simply go elsewhere.

I am told a local supermarket was sold for over $30 Million in the last year or so.

But the best thing about that is they can't take the house with them...

They will get something for it, if not you may as well burn it to the ground and give the land to someone for a veggie garden.

But what they CAN take is equipment and jobs with them.They take their knowledge and skills with them. Ask yourself where the F&P whiteware manufacturing is now, its not NZ.

Go to small towns in NZ, see what happens when investment stops, when banks leave, when supermarkets leave, when tradies leave, Doctors leave. This flows on with the jobs they had for locals also going, which further removes money from the towns.

Roading still costs, water still costs, etc etc etc. You either do without, you spend more money getting it , or you DIY.

"I'll set up the business" you say...think of why the last owner left, a business without enough customers goes broke, and a business run but someone with the required knowledge and skills just goes broke a little bit faster.

ezbee

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#3080062 27-May-2023 14:30

The move of F&P Whiteware manufacturing was for other reasons and unrelated to taxation of wealth.
As much as its eventual fire sale to Haier of China.
Similar for CKD car assembly, moved from NZ, and eventually from Australia.
PYE closing down TV manufacturing in Waihi etc etc.

Somewhat inevitable in the trade agreements to get Farmers access to markets.
There was also necessary access to products and tools that import licensing was gumming up to advance technologically.
Though changes in world trade, technology and such made it inevitable.

F&P Healthcare is still hanging in there, its quite something how big that site has grown,
but still mixed in with offshore production close to markets needed to sell globally.

I do remember a story going back to the Round the World Yacht races.
Some high net wealth Yachting types discussing "hot bunking" and all that stuff.
One involved in manufacturing pipes up...
They have factories in China where staff do that, in shifts, pay them almost nothing too, I have to get me one of them !

mudguard

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#3080075 27-May-2023 15:57

sir1963:

But what they CAN take is equipment and jobs with them.They take their knowledge and skills with them. Ask yourself where the F&P whiteware manufacturing is now, its not NZ.

Go to small towns in NZ, see what happens when investment stops, when banks leave, when supermarkets leave, when tradies leave, Doctors leave. This flows on with the jobs they had for locals also going, which further removes money from the towns.

Roading still costs, water still costs, etc etc etc. You either do without, you spend more money getting it , or you DIY.

"I'll set up the business" you say...think of why the last owner left, a business without enough customers goes broke, and a business run but someone with the required knowledge and skills just goes broke a little bit faster.

I am lucky enough (or unlucky enough) to cover Kaitaia to Invercargill every thirty days for work. The small towns are dying for a myriad of reasons, an ageing population is certainly one. As for companies relocating overseas, well that's been going on for decades as others will make the stuff we want cheaper than we can make it.

There was a depressing article I read recently that focused on Thames and how there was no point building new schools, but hospice or health facilities instead.

Why start a business when we can sell houses to each other? There has been a fundamental shift in wealth, for better or for worse and what it has meant is that we are having kids later, or not at all.

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Rikkitic

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#3080101 27-May-2023 17:40

quickymart:

https://www.stuff.co.nz/bay-of-plenty/300890230/they-should-be-in-english-national-to-ditch-te-reo-traffic-signs

God, I hate Simeon Brown. He comes across (to me) as such a smarmy git. Granted, while he's no Jared Kushner, I fail to see how this is helping anyone - what's wrong with signs being in two languages? This happens everywhere in the world. Maybe he needs to do something for attention and decided to focus on this?

Luxon said that there was “a problem” with the level of te reo Māori used in government departments, and that people had concerns - Luxon doesn't help with (incorrect) statements like this either. This feels like Trump and his "everyone is talking about it" drivel, where "everyone" was the 9 people in his inner circle that he saw every day, telling him what he wanted to hear 😠

Also from Stuff: https://www.stuff.co.nz/opinion/132153848/national-figures-now-quietly-admit-theyve-got-a-luxon-challenge--can-he-improve

Finger up your nose go "d'oh". The problem isn't the level of te reo Māori used in government departments, but the level of fat between Luxon's ears. Maybe he should spend some time in Belgium or Luxembourg or Switzerland, or the myriad of other countries where people cope perfectly well with not just two official languages, but multiple ones. The only thing Luxon and National are revealing is the level of their own appalling ignorance of the rest of the world. If National voters are too dumb to cope with bilingual traffic signs, maybe they are too dumb to vote in this country's elections!

"D'oh, I'm a National voter. Belgium confuses me because Brussels is also Brussel and Bruxelles and Antwerp is Antwerpen. I better go home to Aotearoa before they call it something confusing like a province in the Netherlands."

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

tdgeek

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#3080102 27-May-2023 18:02

mudguard:

I think the thing is, there isn't really a shortage or issue with Ferrari's, art or stocks. No one really needs those. But we all need a place to live. That's probably why it's looked at so closely.

No one needs those, but they need place to live, whose fault is that?

tdgeek

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#3080103 27-May-2023 18:04

mudguard:

Obviously this is a thorny issue. Who do you penalise? Currently it's whichever Gen is coming next. As for the farm example, maybe if capital gains is brought in, draw a line and say it will be at the CV as of the 1st of December 2023 or whatever and charge the 39% after that.

No, its not. if I was the CEO of a company and I performed poorly, its on me, not the next generation of employees.

The CEO analogy are successive Governments. Who appointed them?

tdgeek

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#3080105 27-May-2023 18:09

Rikkitic:

Finger up your nose go "d'oh". The problem isn't the level of te reo Māori used in government departments, but the level of fat between Luxon's ears. Maybe he should spend some time in Belgium or Luxembourg or Switzerland, or the myriad of other countries where people cope perfectly well with not just two official languages, but multiple ones. The only thing Luxon and National are revealing is the level of their own appalling ignorance of the rest of the world. If National voters are too dumb to cope with bilingual traffic signs, maybe they are too dumb to vote in this country's elections!

"D'oh, I'm a National voter. Belgium confuses me because Brussels is also Brussel and Bruxelles and Antwerp is Antwerpen. I better go home to Aotearoa before they call it something confusing like a province in the Netherlands.

Its a bit sad, when if you look at what the world and NZ is going through (take Covid repercussions and climate change) yet we have an issue with embracing our indigenous people. Basically, us Euro's invaded this country.

Racism

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