16 to 235 or 0 to 255?

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rumpty

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#83343 14-May-2011 13:12

What are the thoughts out there about the output range we should be using to feed the projector/TV when playing DVDs?

I use MPC-HC, HDMI connection, and have been using 0 to 255, but recently had a case of visible black crushing, which I didn't like at all. Changing to 16 to 235 basically got rid of it. Had to turn the brightness down a bit, of course, to restore a reasonable black level.

Has anyone had black crushing problems like this?

Nety

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#469146 14-May-2011 19:41

You should be using 16-235 as it is what video is using (DVD, Blu ray etc.). 0-255 is for computer displays.

Edit: this may help
http://www.audioholics.com/tweaks/calibrate-your-system/hdmi-black-levels-xvycc-rgb

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rumpty

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#469231 15-May-2011 10:34

Thanks for your comments and the article Nety. That has helped to clarify the situation.

For me, the confusion only arose after I noticed that the renderer that MPC-HC setup recommends for W7 allows 16 - 235 or 0 - 255 output levels. If I have things straight, WXP renderer options were greyed out, fixed at 16 - 235, I think.

So, thinking that newer is better!!!, tried the 0 - 255 option, which some people out there recommended, but perhaps shouldn't have. Such as this page:

http://www.homecinema-hd.com/mpc-hc-renderer-settings_en.html

It looks like they haven't thought too much about what is really going on.

Out of interest, on what equipment would "set your source components to output YCbCr if there is an option" arise? Presumably not on the average HTPC? Or on my BD60 DVD player, AFAICS.

Nety

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#469310 15-May-2011 15:38

From my understanding and knowing that YCbCr is used when creating video I would say yes you should in both situations. Look under "Simplifying the Process - What to Do" in that link.

Batman

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#469326 15-May-2011 16:04

Nety: You should be using 16-235 as it is what video is using (DVD, Blu ray etc.). 0-255 is for computer displays.

Edit: this may help
http://www.audioholics.com/tweaks/calibrate-your-system/hdmi-black-levels-xvycc-rgb

that/s not what the article says!
16-235 is for STANDARD DEFINITION dvd bluray etc

0-255 is FOR those that can accept blacker than black and whiter than white at EVERY level:
ie receiver AND TV

but i agree that if for the OP if 16-235 works better than it works better for HIM. but not for everyone else necessarily

Batman

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#469331 15-May-2011 16:21

ok i've read more articles ... they DO say ALL movies 16-235 ... so what's the use of TV receiver and source player (PS3/computer/DVD player/BD player) being capable of outputting full range / 0-255?? what's the point of testing whether each of the equipment can do 0-255 and then say nah NOT gonna use it and stick to 16-235 ...

explain please? confused!

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#469340 15-May-2011 16:55

setting ouput to 0-255 and tv hdmi black to low result in crushing

setting output to 0-255 and tv hdmi black to off results in goodness

setting output to 16-235 and tv hdmi black to off results in washoutness

setting output to 16-235 and tv hdmi black to low results in goodness

i'm leaving mine on 0-255 and tv hdmi black on off as have been for ever ... (remember beauty lies in the eye of the beholder or the scientist with the calibration test DVD and instruction manual)

Dyson

Shop now for Dyson appliances (affiliate link).

Nety

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#469406 15-May-2011 20:34

Setting it to 0-255 does not make sense though as below you should match the source media which is always going to be 16-235. But as you say it it makes you happy then go for it.

ALL video stored on modern discs, be it DVD or Blu-ray, are stored as YCbCr with a range of 16-235. But, the content is mastered such that 0-255 is present in the tape domain (the SDI stream - D5 archive tape, etc.) It is then captured into a computer and then the computer will decide what to do with it - preferably retaining the extended info (all data from 0-255). This entire range is then compressed into the 16-235 range accepted by DVDs, Blu-ray Discs, etc. When you play that back on a system set to 16-235, you get all the information as it was intended with no gaps. If you mismatch and play back with RGB (0-255) settings, you'll clip off the black and white levels and black will look "dark gray".

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#469414 15-May-2011 21:17

Nety: Setting it to 0-255 does not make sense though as below you should match the source media which is always going to be 16-235.

No, what doesn't make sense is telling us to NOT use 0-255 and then asking us to test for 0-255 under section

"Blacker-than-Black (below Black) Test Patterns" and then showing that "ANY THX DVD" including Ice Age, Star Wars, The Incredicbles DVD will have an Optimizer specifically for calibrating to 0-255.

It's like the police saying every under 18 and over 65 cannot drink alcohol and telling every supermarket to sell them to everyone.

but i get what you mean ... if the source is 16-235 then the source is only 16-235! weird ...

ilovemusic

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#469424 15-May-2011 22:30

Typical Audioholics article LOL