Help in choosing AV Receiver.

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richms

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#109503 9-Feb-2008 15:27

Also since you are wanting it to upscale, check that it will work on PAL signals when coming from the US - thats something else that is often locked out on US domestic market recievers - the radio is no big loss IMO, but PAL is kinda needed with most DVDs for sale using it ;) On some of the denons the US models would only deal with NTSC, but convert the composite and svideo to component and on some of them HDMI, whereas the local and singaporian models wouldnt go between composite/svideo and the other 2.

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lchiu7

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#109542 9-Feb-2008 21:01

I upscale everthing before I send it to the TV. The PS3 is a great upscaler (alas my US version won't play PAL dvd, even region free) and so is my Toshiba A3 HD-DVD player (but it also doesn't play PAL). So for PAL DVD's I use a HTPC. Upscaling TCL cable is hardly useful since the original PQ is so poor! I just let the TV upscale to its native resolution.

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illicit

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#109785 11-Feb-2008 08:05

The big problem with this Cheaper Sony AMP (STR-DG810) is that it has (as mentioned above) HDMI Switching - ie: It only switches the HDMI inputs when you select different inputs, it has nothing to do with the signal coming over the HDMI cable, you cant pull audio off the HDMI cable on its way through the Amp. Its basically the same as one of those A/V switchboxes from Dick Smith, except the Amp is able to push the buttons for you - Say if a DVD player is connected to this Amp via HDMI and then to the TV via HDMI, a SPDIF or Coax is still needed to get audio into the amp.......... USELESS!

lchiu7

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#109797 11-Feb-2008 09:13

Maybe that's the NZ model? In all the research I did including folks who have, this receiver processes audio over HDMI. For example

http://www.crutchfield.com/S-O2jubSahaQk/App/Product/Item/Main.aspx?g=10420&i=158STDG810&tp=179

Note the section that says

1080p-compatible HDMI digital audio/video switching (3 in, 1 out)

And here is a definite list

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=943558

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richms

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#109798 11-Feb-2008 09:19

Yes, but if you put component into the reciever, you dont get hdmi out so you have to change input on the display and change input on the reciever when you want to use different sources. Negates one of the main reasons to get an AV receiver IMO if you still have to change the display as well.

Richard rich.ms

lchiu7

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#109964 11-Feb-2008 19:09

I don't plan to put component into the AVR. I have three HDMI sources (PVR, PS3 and HD-DVD player). Two of them (the HD players) have audio over HDMI. For the PVR I will probably continue running audio out directly to the TV so that's not an issue. Down the line I will probably install a Toslink connector on it and router audio to the Toslink input on the AVR.

So the TV input would never have to change. In fact I now use a HDMI switch (remote controlled) to send all video to the one input on the TV so that is not change. The change would be, audio from the HD players would be HDMI (so in some cases lossless) rather than Toslink now.

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snaffta

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#110710 14-Feb-2008 21:41

lchiu7: I don't plan to put component into the AVR. I have three HDMI sources (PVR, PS3 and HD-DVD player). Two of them (the HD players) have audio over HDMI. For the PVR I will probably continue running audio out directly to the TV so that's not an issue. Down the line I will probably install a Toslink connector on it and router audio to the Toslink input on the AVR.

OMG.
I have gotten so confuzed now. I stopped thinking about this for 3days and I don't know what's what...
Heres what i figure I need. Tell me if its wrong or right.

Its better to do the processing in the player/source. And it saves on money for a receiver.

If you output PCM to the receiver, and the receiver does PCM over HDMI, then you have all the Surround sound processing Done.
Ie. Playstaion3 decodes compressed signal of all sound and outputs PCM. IEE. DTS-ex and pro-logic DVD audio etc.

So if you have a 7.1 receiver. And it is fed PCM 7.1 from a source    ie.PS3   you'll get 7.1
If its a 5.1 receiver and you feed it 7.1PCM you get 5.1

Hard to tell if the receiver is Passthru relay or Switching only. Switching really is worthless.

Make sure it relays 1080p not 1080i or 720 max.   Not very nessesary to get an 1080p upscaling receiver. As it's better to do the processing in the player.

Most receivers have 2/1    in/out    HDMI ports.    3/1   or   3/2   considerably increase price.

HDMI 1.3 is backwards Compatible with 1.1 1.2 and further revisions.   BC is part of the HDMI standard. So all components are compatible just with differing quality.

TA.
~snaff

richms

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#110733 14-Feb-2008 23:29

Doing the decode in the player and not the receiver means you are limited to the players bass management rather then that in the receiver. I haven't looked very deeply into the hdmi outputting players for what they do, but the analog 5.1 players typically suck with no options to redirect the LFE to the mains or things like that which IMO are pretty essential.

Richard rich.ms

stuzzo

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#110751 15-Feb-2008 00:32

OMG.
I have gotten so confuzed now. I stopped thinking about this for 3days and I don't know what's what...
Heres what i figure I need. Tell me if its wrong or right.

They'll be taking PHDs in explaining HT receivers before long! It is getting more complex.

Its better to do the processing in the player/source. And it saves on money for a receiver.

Quality wise there should be little or no difference between audio decoding at the source versus the receiver. Currently only the more expensive receivers can do decoding of the new lossless formats but expect it to be in all receivers in a few years time.

If you output PCM to the receiver, and the receiver does PCM over HDMI, then you have all the Surround sound processing Done. i.e the Playstaion3 decodes compressed signal of all sound and outputs PCM. IEE. DTS-ex and pro-logic DVD audio etc.

Not necessarily. Some won't do surround processing of PCM. However, all you are losing if they don't is the ability to process a 5.1 signal into 7.1 channels. They will still do level, distance and bass correction though (although the odd one has goofed on the bass correction).

Currently the PS3 can only output Dolby TrueHD as PCM (not bitstream). In addition 7.1 channels are downmixed to 5.1 for this format. It cannot process DTS-HD Master Audio in either PCM or Bitsteam, however decoding to PCM is expected in firmware updates.

So if you have a 7.1 receiver. And it is fed PCM 7.1 from a source ie.PS3 you'll get 7.1
If its a 5.1 receiver and you feed it 7.1PCM you get 5.1

"Some PS3 games (Ridge Racer 7) will only output 7.1 and 2.0 PCM, and thus, will only output 2.0 PCM when settings indicate a 5.1 channel setup. For such games, setting the output to DD will allow 5.1 channel setups to experience properly downmixed 5.1 channels of audio." From AVSforum database.

I guess that means you have to to set the source output to 5.1 for a 5.1 receiver.

Hard to tell if the receiver is Passthru relay or Switching only. Switching really is worthless.

It can be hard to tell from just product descriptions and specs . Normally if the receiver is described as an HDMI repeater then it will play audio from HDMI though that is not inherent in the specification of a repeater. Almost all will have the option of passthrough ie can pass out the audio at the HDMI out.

Make sure it relays 1080p not 1080i or 720 max. Not very nessesary to get an 1080p upscaling receiver. As it's better to do the processing in the player.

HDMI 1.0 can do most things e.g 1080p. HDMI 1.1 added DVD-A transport. 1.2 added SACD. 1.3 added Deep Color and bitstream of hi-def audio. However, having the transport capability doesn't mean the manufacturer's equipment has to support that feature. e.g SACD decoding.

Upscaling is not that important as most displays do it fairly well. Deinterlacing is harder but is only available in the higher end receivers, none of which have had overly glowing reviews in this area. Upconversion is somewhat handy if you want to output everything over one cable e.g Component or HDMI .

Most receivers have 2/1 in/out HDMI ports. 3/1 or 3/2 considerably increase price.

Manufacturers seem to be a bit scimpy with HDMI inputs. Sony stand out as more generous in this area.

HDMI 1.3 is backwards Compatible with 1.1 1.2 and further revisions. BC is part of the HDMI standard. So all components are compatible just with differing quality.

Correct.

Hope I've helped to simplify the confusion!

lchiu7

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#110761 15-Feb-2008 06:35

Not sure which AVR's can do bass management on PCM signals over HDMI which might be an issue for some, but one of the advantages or indeed requirements for the HD player to decode the signal in the player and output MPCM is that some of the newer HD titles actually require dynamic mixing of more than one track before outputting the audio. If the player is decoding the True HD or DTS-HD itself it can also do that mixing. If the player is oiutputting the audio as bitstream then the AVR can't do the mixing since the bitstream signal will only contain one track.

Given neither HD player I have can output HD audio over bistream I am going to be pretty happy with a AVR that can process MPCM. Also it's worth noting that the PS3 with the latest firmware can play SACD's and output a multichannel uncompressed mix over HDMI. Currently with another SACD player I have, I am forced to output 6 channel analogue which makes cables really untidy!

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richms

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#110827 15-Feb-2008 16:09

Bass management is one area that is still really lacking on the cheaper gear - my cheap and nasy pioneer only lets me choose between small and large for the speakers, and if I have a sub connected it will only send the bass there, not to the mains. If you choose no sub then the LFE channel goes exactly nowhere so you lose out on it.

A mates proper processor (no amps in it) lets you specify the highpass on each channel and where the bass from each goes to so you can set it up so only LFE goes to the sub, but all the bass from the center and surrounds goes to the mains.

I actually prefer it with no center since the mains image to the center anyway and its only off axis people that need it like in a cinema, mighty pioneer seems to once again send the bass to the sub if enabled even tho it should all go to both mains.

What do you need to have mixed audio streams for on movies? Thats a new one on me.

Richard rich.ms

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lchiu7

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#110830 15-Feb-2008 16:55

richms: Bass management is one area that is still really lacking on the cheaper gear - my cheap and nasy pioneer only lets me choose between small and large for the speakers, and if I have a sub connected it will only send the bass there, not to the mains. If you choose no sub then the LFE channel goes exactly nowhere so you lose out on it.

A mates proper processor (no amps in it) lets you specify the highpass on each channel and where the bass from each goes to so you can set it up so only LFE goes to the sub, but all the bass from the center and surrounds goes to the mains.

I actually prefer it with no center since the mains image to the center anyway and its only off axis people that need it like in a cinema, mighty pioneer seems to once again send the bass to the sub if enabled even tho it should all go to both mains.

What do you need to have mixed audio streams for on movies? Thats a new one on me.

Get full range speakers in all locations to avoid having to do bass management :-).

Bass is fairly non directional anyway so I never have issues in routing most of the sub content to my sub

here is an article on in player mixing

http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/articles/2007/08/hi-def_dvd_-_audio_streaming_over_hdmi.php

Staying in Wellington. Check out my AirBnB in the Wellington CBD. https://www.airbnb.co.nz/h/wellycbd PM me and mention GZ to get a 15% discount and no AirBnB charges.

richms

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#110833 15-Feb-2008 17:16

Still have problems where audio engineers mixing music dvds dont seem to know what the LFE channel is for and they stick all the bass on that rather then mixing it as 5.0 since there are no effects in a live music performance normally..Dont think I could fid full range rears in here and get them over the sofa without looking really stupid ;)

Looks like its only used for commentry which is something I have about as much interest in as listening to startrek geeks talking about their hobbies. Still, if the discs are authored to block bitstream output then there isnt much that you can do. I for one am quite happy with regular old DTS and DD on dvd so couldnt care less about the new formats when they have so much trouble getting the current ones right when mastering.

Richard rich.ms

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