Distributed Sky/HDMI in new house build

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Jaxson

8043 posts

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#598191 21-Mar-2012 13:23

chevrolux: In a patch panel situation we quit often drill of series of 50mm+ holes through the top plate and normally atleast one dwang. Never been an issue and never will. You aren't drilling holes every 100mm so it isnt going to weaken a bit of 4x2 much at all.

With due respect that's not your call to make, unless you are aware of the engineering design intention of the framework. Whilst the building inspector may not find that you've gouged out 55% of the cross section, if there was a subsequent building failure and the insurance company investigated it, they may have some questions to ask.

Chances of that happening though? Slim to none.

mrhaboobi

165 posts

Master Geek

#598204 21-Mar-2012 13:41

So assuming i need 2 or 3 or 4 25MM holes, to run a few think stacks of network cables, how do you guys do the install, do you just drill as many holes as needed? do you spread them along the top plate, what is the approach?

Pock

156 posts

Master Geek

#598309 21-Mar-2012 17:15

You are getting a lot of mixed advice here!

A lot of people are going down the road of having one centralized cupboard / rack that has all the AV and networking gear, and all the cables are pulled back to here. What I'd suggest is go a little overboard with cabling. It's very easy to get cables around whilst you have open frames, but not so easy when the GIB is on and the walls are full of insulation. Here's what I'd do if I was in your position:

To every TV point run 3 cat6 cables, one stranded cat5 and one RG6. Run this all back to one central location where you plan to have your AV gear.

Why so many cables? Well, in short it gives you plenty of options down the track. Two cat6 cables would be used to route HDMI into your TV the other one for a data connection for your TV. The stranded cat5 for IR distribution and the RG6 for freeview. (Are you in an Freeview HD area?)

Pock

156 posts

Master Geek

#598311 21-Mar-2012 17:19

...also, re drilling holes. The building code says that any holes drilled must not be more than 1/5th of the width of the 'element' you are drilling. I've drilled bigger holes than that when I was doing AV cabling, but you wouldn't want a building inspector to pull you up on it, because that would mean replacing everything you've drilled a hole in.

mrhaboobi

165 posts

Master Geek

#598316 21-Mar-2012 17:32

Pock: You are getting a lot of mixed advice here!

A lot of people are going down the road of having one centralized cupboard / rack that has all the AV and networking gear, and all the cables are pulled back to here. What I'd suggest is go a little overboard with cabling. It's very easy to get cables around whilst you have open frames, but not so easy when the GIB is on and the walls are full of insulation. Here's what I'd do if I was in your position:

To every TV point run 3 cat6 cables, one stranded cat5 and one RG6. Run this all back to one central location where you plan to have your AV gear.

Why so many cables? Well, in short it gives you plenty of options down the track. Two cat6 cables would be used to route HDMI into your TV the other one for a data connection for your TV. The stranded cat5 for IR distribution and the RG6 for freeview. (Are you in an Freeview HD area?)

Why Stranded? and not solid for inwall?

chevrolux

4962 posts

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Inactive user

#598317 21-Mar-2012 17:37

Jaxson:
chevrolux: In a patch panel situation we quit often drill of series of 50mm+ holes through the top plate and normally atleast one dwang. Never been an issue and never will. You aren't drilling holes every 100mm so it isnt going to weaken a bit of 4x2 much at all.

With due respect that's not your call to make, unless you are aware of the engineering design intention of the framework. Whilst the building inspector may not find that you've gouged out 55% of the cross section, if there was a subsequent building failure and the insurance company investigated it, they may have some questions to ask.

Chances of that happening though? Slim to none.

Yea that is a fair comment I guess. Should say though, I will drill out a top plate on an internal wall that isn't load bearing with no issues. If it is load bearing I will be a bit more courteous on how much timber I take out lol. Also, the drill goes no where near roof truss's or high span timber joists, etc.

mrhaboobi: So assuming i need 2 or 3 or 4 25MM holes, to run a few think stacks of network cables, how do you guys do the install, do you just drill as many holes as needed? do you spread them along the top plate, what is the approach?

Like I say, when there is a full loom of cables I just hole saw the top plate. Maybe do two 50mm holes close together and chisel out the bit in the middle so I have a nice slot. Must say though I only bring cables down a wall to the patch panels for small jobs. 70 odd cables is quite a squeeze down a 4x2 wall. Anything more and I will surface mount on cable tray. 1 - it's easier than drilling, 2 - makes it easier for new cables in the future.
This is only in one spot on one length of timber in the frame. For an outlet where there might be 4 cat 6 I just use 25mm. It's pretty much the best size for everything lol.

Pock

156 posts

Master Geek

#598333 21-Mar-2012 18:27

mrhaboobi:
...

Why Stranded? and not solid for inwall?

Stranded because solid tends to break / become weak when terminated into screw terminations. Some IR stuff uses RJ45, so solid would be fine for this.

Sharesies

Trade NZ and US shares and funds with Sharesies (affiliate link).

JimmyH

2886 posts

Uber Geek

#598345 21-Mar-2012 19:28

Coming back to the video distribution issue - I have seen what you want to do done with component video (which can do HD and is more tolerant of longer runs) before HDMI was so common, using component distribution amplifiers (which you can still get). My recollection is it worked well. This might be an option, with an HDMI to component converter (HDFury is good) and distribution amp at the Sky-box end.

Jaycar sells a 4-way component distribution amp (CAT. NO. AC1648) for $99, and an HDMI to component converter (CAT. NO. AC1605) for $159. I don't know whether the Jaycar converter will cope with HDCP, but an HDFury certainly will.

The problem with HDMI is that it doesn't like long cable runs, and using HDMI->Cat5->HDMI solutions can be expensive as (I assume) you would need a central HDMI splitter, as well as a set of baluns for each run.

If you can get away with it in terms of cable lengths, and don't fancy component, I would be tempted to just run HDMI to each room as part of the cabling, with a nice tidy jack in the wall plate. At the Sky box end use something like a 4x4 matirx splitter to send the signal to each room, with the added bonus of being able to send blu-ray feeds (or whatever) as well.

Pock

156 posts

Master Geek

#598394 21-Mar-2012 21:30

JimmyH: Coming back to the video distribution issue - I have seen what you want to do done with component video (which can do HD and is more tolerant of longer runs) before HDMI was so common, using component distribution amplifiers (which you can still get). My recollection is it worked well. This might be an option, with an HDMI to component converter (HDFury is good) and distribution amp at the Sky-box end...

Well, I learned something new today.

Here I was thinking that component video = 720p max, but upon further investigation it seems that is not the case!

Skolink

1081 posts

Uber Geek

#598404 21-Mar-2012 21:36

Also someone on the forum here has a central mediaPC server which does Sky + FreeviewUHF + Bluray + NAS, and has only an AppleTV at each TV with something like XBMC on it.
The other alternative is to buy three Dreambox DM800S or similar and do 'card sharing' with the Sky card in just one of them, or just swap the card between them as someone has suggested.

mrhaboobi

165 posts

Master Geek

#684210 11-Sep-2012 08:14

HI Guys,

Raising an old topic of mine rather than start new, the foundation is being poured on our new house so figure it time to get serious. Still unsure what to do about the install. Would like a final Sanity check.

1. Each Room will have a couple of cat6 and some rg6 going to it, this will feed back to a central hub.

This will allow Networking, TV, Phone around the house and controlled from one location in something like an st3600 cabinet.

2. A 25MM conduit run from this location to the demarc spot to allow for future fibre with some cat6 in it hidden in the wall.

So the above makes sense to me, and i just need to buy some good but Cheap cat6 cable, anyone have a source for a 300M roll? and of course some hardware to power it all

Problem is still HDMI and IR.

As i understand it, hdmi over cables any longer than 12 - 15 M is getting tricky andi dont feel like spending the $800 - $1000 that i was quoted for at a local store for 20M cable? So running HDMI over Cat6 with baluns seems nicer for that ( although they also wanted 600 for a pair of baluns!). Anyone know of good HDMI cables that will work over say 15M at 1080p? I also read somewhere people are starting to self terminate HDMI? is that correct

However problem is that to do so you need 2 single runs for each HDMI spot, and you cant run it via the central HUB? So as i understand it if i want HDMI from the lounge, to 3 other locations in the house, i need to run 6 extra cat6 cables into the lounge, with a pair going to each of the 3 locations, and then baluns at each end?

Could someone confirm this.

I assume that with IR i can use the rest of the network i described in point 1 above? or do i need to run extra cat6 for that aswell?

Anyone in chch going through this right now?

Thanks
Greg

Our new house will have 3 tvs i want to get HDMI to. ( my sky + ps3 etc ).

There is the main lounge room. This will have a tv, with the video games and stereo etc..

There is the family room which will have another lcd tv and i will need sky from the lounge

and finally there is the master bed room which i would also like hdmi sky ( we currently have RF in our old house but the pic quality is border line ).

As this is a new build i have the luxury of drilling and running cables where i want, but im not sure the best option, i see people say run two cat5e cables between two tv locations, and connect a balun at each end, but what happens when you introduce a 3rd tv to the set up. ( or a 4th etc )..   Do i start needing a central hub? and can i run the HDMI via a hub/switch or do baluns mean i need a direct cable run between spots.

I'd also very much like to have IR to the same locations that i have the HDMI run to, so im assuming another cable for that.

I also want to set the house up for network/phone so thats something else i need to consider at the same time. lastly i want to run cables for speakers and subs, and my amp might not be below the TV so im wondering the best way to hook everything up nicely, and advice on which inwall cables to use for sound if i want a decent quality set up?

Skolink

1081 posts

Uber Geek

#684225 11-Sep-2012 09:13

Well a friend of mine has just told me he has bought a section and will be building in the new year, and my parents may build a house some time in the next year. The advice I will be giving them is to run Cat6 and coax, but not HDMI or anything else back to the central hub.

For my parents it is more likely that they will just get a 2nd TiVoHD which will share recordings via the network. I'll probably have to set them up with something running XBMC (RasPi?) and a NAS box too.

I can see the use of running HDMI though, for wall mount TVs. If there is a cupboard in the same room, or the 'hub' is close to the lounge then it would make sense to run HDMI. In all likelyhood they will probably just buy a modern looking TV stand/cabinet, so the TV can be shifted about a bit.

You don't need IR if you have CEC capable BluRay etc devices, but you could repurpose Cat6 for that anyway.

Don't forget you can use card sharing, or just swap the Sky card between Dreamboxes if you want that in multiple rooms. Sounds like a Dreambox would be cheaper than a HDMI cable!

Dunnersfella

4086 posts

Uber Geek

#684251 11-Sep-2012 10:28

Be aware - balun's drive installers nuts.
Long runs of HDMI cables can drive installers nuts.
Don't go cheap...
And don't underestimate how handy IR control is, but if you're distributing audio, the network AVR's make some of that redundant. HDMI CEC will most likely drive you nuts though.

JimmyH

2886 posts

Uber Geek

#684569 11-Sep-2012 19:10

Whoever quoted you $800 - $1000 for a 20M cable is gouging you outrageously.

I just had a quick look at Monoprice (a large reputable dealer where I have bought stuff before), which has a cable close to the length you want - 75 feet (circa 22M) for $US54. They also have 50 foot (circa 15M) cables for $US40, and even 131 foot (circa 40M) ones for $US99.

Add a bit for shipping, you are still looking at only 8-10% of the cost quoted locally!

(Care to name and shame the retailer, so we all know to avoid bothering with them?)

nickb800

2719 posts

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Trusted

#684578 11-Sep-2012 19:39

mrhaboobi: HI Guys,

Raising an old topic of mine rather than start new, the foundation is being poured on our new house so figure it time to get serious. Still unsure what to do about the install. Would like a final Sanity check.

1. Each Room will have a couple of cat6 and some rg6 going to it, this will feed back to a central hub.

This will allow Networking, TV, Phone around the house and controlled from one location in something like an st3600 cabinet.

2. A 25MM conduit run from this location to the demarc spot to allow for future fibre with some cat6 in it hidden in the wall.

So the above makes sense to me, and i just need to buy some good but Cheap cat6 cable, anyone have a source for a 300M roll? and of course some hardware to power it all

Problem is still HDMI and IR.

As i understand it, hdmi over cables any longer than 12 - 15 M is getting tricky andi dont feel like spending the $800 - $1000 that i was quoted for at a local store for 20M cable? So running HDMI over Cat6 with baluns seems nicer for that ( although they also wanted 600 for a pair of baluns!). Anyone know of good HDMI cables that will work over say 15M at 1080p? I also read somewhere people are starting to self terminate HDMI? is that correct

However problem is that to do so you need 2 single runs for each HDMI spot, and you cant run it via the central HUB? So as i understand it if i want HDMI from the lounge, to 3 other locations in the house, i need to run 6 extra cat6 cables into the lounge, with a pair going to each of the 3 locations, and then baluns at each end?

Could someone confirm this.

I assume that with IR i can use the rest of the network i described in point 1 above? or do i need to run extra cat6 for that aswell?

Anyone in chch going through this right now?

Thanks
Greg

For the Cat6 I would recommend CablesDirect https://www.cablesdirect.co.nz/catalog/entry?entry=313&page_number=1 as I used them for my own structured cabling install.

Have a look at Jaycar, they have a 4-way HDMI splitter for $179, and HDMI extender sets for $179 also.

You can 'patch' the cat6 runs coming from the Lounge to the Bedroom (or wherever has the 'slave' TVs), but bearing in mind that different Balun products have total length limits, and going from the Lounge to patch panel, then patch panel to Bedroom probably wont be the shortest route from Lounge to Bedroom. Also I think the Baluns like that the Cat6 runs are of roughly equal length, so thats something you need to be careful of when running & terminating the cable.

Following the patching theme, you dont necessarily need 6x Cat6 to the Lounge to serve 3 locations, you could run like this:

[HD Source in Lounge] <--(HDMI)--> [Balun in Lounge] <--(Cat6)--> [Balun in Hub] <--(HDMI)--> [4-Way HDMI Splitter in Hub] <--(HDMI)--> [Balun in Hub] <--(Cat6)--> [Balun in Bedroom] <--(HDMI)--> [Bedroom TV]

Would require a fair bit of space in your Hub, but comes to ~$900 (+cables) which sounds cheaper than some of the alternatives

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