Master Splitter into ugly old phone wiring systems

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lapimate

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#1043234 13-May-2014 20:54

Ragnor: ... You can use gel filled "exterior" cat5e/6 for anything that will get wet, generally internal wiring doesn't get wet or you have bigger problems...

PTC 222 is from 1999 most of the PTC spec's 103, 106 etc are replaced by the TCF premises wiring http://www.tcf.org.nz/content/dc07abcd-21f8-4288-b55b-6f861bdd4d02.html

Thanks for the info/refs.

TCF Premises Wiring Code of Practice 2011 does betray some concern about the effects of moisture exposure cf actual wetness: “36.3.4 … In some cases, the cable sheath may absorb moisture or provide a path along which it can travel into the TO and result in service failure due to corrosion. This has proved to be a significant cause of service outages in New Zealand’s generally damp climate….”

chevrolux

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#1043266 13-May-2014 21:27

lapimate:
Ragnor: ... You can use gel filled "exterior" cat5e/6 for anything that will get wet, generally internal wiring doesn't get wet or you have bigger problems...

PTC 222 is from 1999 most of the PTC spec's 103, 106 etc are replaced by the TCF premises wiring http://www.tcf.org.nz/content/dc07abcd-21f8-4288-b55b-6f861bdd4d02.html
Thanks for the info/refs. TCF Premises Wiring Code of Practice 2011 does betray some concern about the effects of moisture exposure cf actual wetness: “36.3.4 … In some cases, the cable sheath may absorb moisture or provide a path along which it can travel into the TO and result in service failure due to corrosion. This has proved to be a significant cause of service outages in New Zealand’s generally damp climate….”

It is well known that most sheathing on Cat5e/Cat6 is porous. Is this a reason to use gel filled cable under a house? - No, not in all situations.

If you are really concerned about cable integrity you could follow the rules that the Ministry of Education set for all school cabling done under SNUP. If the crawl space under the floor is lower than 500mm the cable must either be gel filled or in a conduit until it goes up the bottom plate to the TO.

But then you have to remember that school cabling gets done once in a lifetime (give or take), in a house things are changing constantly (like every 10 years). So if it is dry enough under the floor then why have the added hassle of gel filled cable (it is possibly the thing I hate the very most in life, right next to parking tickets), it just isn't worth it and you stand a very good chance you will either move out or renovate before the cable corrodes away.
I would say it is well worth suspending the cables off the ground in some form whether that be on a catenary wire or just by simply using cleats along the joists or something.

coffeebaron

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#1043278 13-May-2014 21:48

Yea, gel filled cable can be overkill in most situations, so I use it most of the time for master filter installs :)
Not the nicest of stuff to work with for sure!

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Jaxson

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#1043285 13-May-2014 22:00

Decent quality RG6 aerial cable should be gel filled also. It's worth the discussion, but for the expected life of my particular install I won't be bothering...
For completeness I guess we should mention that you can technically get Cat cable rated to be directly buried, though I personally wouldn't be doing that without a conduit but hey.

Thanks all, I've got enough to warrant getting dirty now.

Jaxson

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#1065939 15-Jun-2014 12:05

Well update time...

I installed the splitter, so it slotted in fine. As discussed earlier, cut into the main line coming in and installed the splitter there, feeding the filtered output off to the existing birds nest of cable inside the house.

(Actually this itself took two goes as the gel scotchloc joiners didn't make a successful joint the first time. That was a pain lol as it's under a house in the dirt and dust and cobwebs, but at least very very dry. I've ended up buying some Jaycar ones as I'd run out of the proper jobbies, but the Jaycar ones have turned out fine, despite being quite a bit smaller...)

However, the issues remain unfortunately. Internet drops off when the phone rings, and there is a continual hiss on the line, with the caller sounding like they're in the distance.
Thought it was sorted as it did sound better initially, but quickly reverted back to how it was.

Ideas from here are:
- Convert the houses Master/Slave 3 wire outlets to 2 wire. I do suspect either a Chorus line fault, or a local hardware failure fault within the existing old 3 wire outlets.

- And to build on this, I'm seriously considering a new run to just one outlet at least initially, and disconnecting the rest of the house altogether.
Reason being they only actually need one outlet to their phone base station unit now. All the other outlets are unused and I've installed a new straight Cat 5e run to the modem from the splitter.

- Replace the modem with a non standard Telecom offering one. Though I'm loath to do this as I've tested there with my old telecom one (same make model) which was working fine at my house, so I highly doubt it's this. However, another brand one may be different?...

Following on from this it simply has to be a fault log call back to Telecom and onto Chorus. Apparently they have had someone from Chorus take a look at it, but I can't see how they could have okayed this situation if they did indeed visit their site. Unless they were simply confirming the presence of a dial tone?! Swapping pairs could be an option for them, along with whatever other magic they can perform back at their infrastructure point. (What do you call that these days?! back at the exchange? cabinet? etc...)

old3eyes

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#1065947 15-Jun-2014 12:42

lapimate:
Ragnor:... new cat5e/cat6 to the modem ...

Is there "Telepermitted" Cat5e or 6 available? PTC 103 says inter alia "4.2.1 Materials (1) Non-Telepermitted cat 5 is also readily available, but this may contain cellular insulation which is prohibited by PTC 222 because of risk of total failure should water penetrate the sheath ..." [my emphasis].

Does Telecom PTC still apply to Chorus supplied lines??

Regards,

Old3eyes

coffeebaron

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#1066023 15-Jun-2014 15:02

Disconnect rest of house wiring. Put another jack for phone on spare pair on new cable and back to phone side of master filter.

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Jaxson

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#1066188 15-Jun-2014 20:35

coffeebaron: Disconnect rest of house wiring. Put another jack for phone on spare pair on new cable and back to phone side of master filter.

Oh yeah, kinda forgot about the other 3 pairs in that new cat cable lol.

Sweet, figure forget the existing birds nest, install a single new 2 wire outlet and if still no joy then bounce to Chrous as a line fault via Telecom as their current Phone + ISP provider. By then the house will be configured as bare and as optimum as possible!

Thanks.

Bung

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#1066203 15-Jun-2014 21:05

old3eyes: Does Telecom PTC still apply to Chorus supplied lines??

AFAIK that sort of specification has been absorbed into the Codes of Practice put out by the TCF.

Jaxson

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#1068889 18-Jun-2014 21:20

Ok, quick techie question here:

The Telepermit 2 wire phone info often makes reference to a capacitor and resistor installed by Telecom prior to the residents internal wiring.
It may be a reference back to the remote phone line supply equipment, or it could read that it should be in the ETP itself.

All my experience with these shows the line coming into the house to be a 2 pair only cable, usually with only one pair active, which is fed directly into the master filter.

Any and all capacitors etc are sunk into the phone outlets themselves, inside throughout the house, even with more modern 2 wire wiring approaches/equipment.
eg DYNAMIX BT 2 Wire Jack Telepermited with Mounting Block

Is this something we should be aware of/wary of etc, or is this simply old info?

Thanks.

Glassboy

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#1068892 18-Jun-2014 21:32

Have you swapped out the phone?

Jaxson

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#1068899 18-Jun-2014 21:36

Glassboy: Have you swapped out the phone?

Yeah, they've actually purchased new ones.
I'll be dropping all the existing wiring this coming weekend, as discussed above.
I'm just remote from them so can't do it right now until I get a chance to go back at the weekends.

lapimate

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#1068930 18-Jun-2014 22:42

Jaxson: ... The Telepermit 2 wire phone info often makes reference to a capacitor and resistor installed by Telecom prior to the residents internal wiring. ...

See grb67's comment in http://www.geekzone.co.nz/forums.asp?forumid=49&topicid=23487 and see whetu's comments in http://forums.overclockers.co.nz/showthread.php?t=13484 particularly #11.

Bung

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#1068948 18-Jun-2014 23:57

Jaxson: All my experience with these shows the line coming into the house to be a 2 pair only cable, usually with only one pair active, which is fed directly into the master filter. Any and all capacitors etc are sunk into the phone outlets themselves, inside throughout the house, even with more modern 2 wire wiring approaches/equipment.
eg DYNAMIX BT 2 Wire Jack Telepermited with Mounting Block
Is this something we should be aware of/wary of etc, or is this simply old info? Thanks.

The Test Termination was once seen as important when the Line side were bleeding money chasing faults. The then manager wanted to automate as much testing as possible and the capacitor resistor network established a minimum termination in case no phones were connected. At one point active ETPs were considered that would disconnect the house wiring to allow a bare cable pair condition to also be tested. AFAIK the 2 wire sockets with conformal coating to stop corrosion made the biggest difference. The latest pattern sockets don't have any capacitors as no modern phones (< ~15 years old) need them.

Jaxson

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#1072575 23-Jun-2014 13:25

Just to follow up on this. I hadn't been able to get back, but after making some final changes (disconnect all house 3 wire sockets and install just one 2 wire outlet) for me over the phone, we determined that the fault was outside of the house wiring.
A chorus tech attended and did the final pieces we'd discussed above, ie disconnecting the house wiring altogether, and routing the filtered phone line along one of the unused pairs of my Cat5e cable.
He replaced my master splitter with an identical one and this made no difference either, so he took mine and left his new one in place.

He then admitted there was nothign more that could be done within the residence and returned the next day to say they had switched pairs on some of their equipment quite upstream from the house.
I don't believe the fault was in the final pair /cable coming to the house itself, but rather further back, and it took quite a long time to track down over the weekend.

I'm glad now that I didn't blow another tank of gas to return to make those final adjustments as the fault was always outside of their control.
On the plus side, now that this has been put right their home is now fully optimised to make use of the stable service, so that's not a complete waste of time really.

Job done, and much thanks to all who have contributed along the way.

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