Telecom Wholesale deploying VDSL2

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698 posts

Ultimate Geek

#192994 30-Jan-2009 20:40

teletek

Great, Geekzone's newest troll.

Poor Telecom

If only us stupid consumers would see how hard they work and how much effort it is, we would realise that NZ actually has good broadband! Wait... NZ broadband is the laughing stock of the world, backed up by data from the OECD. But teletek says otherwise! Oh, what a conundrum!

So given the historic trend FFTH will be little more than the National Governments legacy of bringing smut to your screen faster, if it ever eventuates.

Ah, great line. All fast internet access is good for is porn. And it's all National's fault. Brilliant. Hey let's just go back to dial up, wouldn't that be great! Then we could concentrate on the important things the internet has to offer!

teletek

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Geek

#192997 30-Jan-2009 20:55

So given the historic trend FFTH will be little more than the National Governments legacy of bringing smut to your screen faster, if it ever eventuates.

Ah, great line. All fast internet access is good for is porn. And it's all National's fault. Brilliant. Hey let's just go back to dial up, wouldn't that be great! Then we could concentrate on the important things the internet has to offer!

Did I hit a raw nerve there? Don't tell me you fell for the politicians electioneering spin. Ha ha... You did!

Everything I pointed out is true. Your reply contains nothing of substance that supports the continuation of this thread in a meaningful , progressive and logical way. You are working on emotion. Not fact.

Why don't you add something of use to the rest of this thread and point out ONE commecially viable application that will require the investment of Billions of $ of taxpayers money for a seperate FTTH network or should I say Ultra Fast Broadband as it is now called by the illustrious leader.

Can't be too hard to name ONE application other than porn, can it? Or is it?

chriswiggins

413 posts

Ultimate Geek

#193000 30-Jan-2009 21:20

teletek:

Can't be too hard to name ONE application other than porn, can it? Or is it?

What HDIPTV doesnt count?

Thing is your not thinking at what the future may bring. There WILL BE something that is released / invented that is not available which demands high bandwidth / speed. Its a little thing people call "Future Proofing" I believe an example of this is when people build houses.. Or did that fact "slip" your mind.

I'm not old enough to vote but it was time for things to change. If there are a few changes we dont like then fair enough but anything is better than a Labour led government IMO

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#193003 30-Jan-2009 21:52

I think a great example here is Youtube
think back 10 or so years when practically everyone were using 56k modems, youtube in its current form would give start/stall a new definition. Now with the norm being Cable/ADSL/High speed Wiress, this application runs perfectly fine.
Give us FTTH or VDSL2, a new application will evolve that will make the most of the speed offered.
HDIPtv is a good example, maybe HD video calling?
I don't know much about cloud computing but wouldn't this benefit also?

nzbnw

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#193004 30-Jan-2009 21:56

richgamer: telecom always submits press releases for faster broadband, but they always leave out having higher data caps. it is amazing how the new zealand newspapers never criticise telecom for low data caps. i use between 500mb-1gb per day and i dont download any illegal torrents or software.

First let me bring back an old Geekzone fav...

Now this is a press release from Telecom Wholesale, and thanks to the previous Labour led government (please let's not get into a debate here) is an operationally separate part of Telecom. That is to say, Telecom Wholesale is NOT a retail ISP. They DO NOT set retail ISP caps.

It is likely various ISP's will announce pricing and caps when they decide to launch such a product, Telecom Retail included.

As to your download, Telecom has a 40GB plan, which is more than 1GB per day, but you should be prepared to pay for it! So what's the problem?

nzbnw

nzbnw

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#193005 30-Jan-2009 22:03

Screeb:

Great, Geekzone's newest troll.

I don't think teletek is a troll, quite the opposite actually, and is trying to provide a balance view. I think teletek is on the money when he or she says

teletek: Telecom bashing is a favorite pastime by those who have little or no understanding how complex and expensive in terms of capital, resources and labour it is to create and maintain a nationwide telecommunications/data network.

Poor Telecom If only us stupid consumers would see how hard they work and how much effort it is, we would realise that NZ actually has good broadband! Wait... NZ broadband is the laughing stock of the world, backed up by data from the OECD. But teletek says otherwise! Oh, what a conundrum!

Unfortunately it's only too easy to bag Telecom instead of trying to understand and thinking about what one types. NZ Broadband in my view IS NOT the laughing stock of the world. But the New Zealand media has to accept some of the blame here; they spread FUD and make it sound like everyone in Australia for example has ADSL 2+ broadband running at 24mbit, which is just not true.

Screeb

698 posts

Ultimate Geek

#193029 31-Jan-2009 03:53

teletekDid I hit a raw nerve there? Don't tell me you fell for the politicians electioneering spin. Ha ha... You did!

I didn't "fall" for anything. I voted National, but not because of their broadband proposals. I do agree that a FTTH network is crucial in the coming years, and they happen to be the only ones who are even talking about doing it.

Everything I pointed out is true. Your reply contains nothing of substance that supports the continuation of this thread in a meaningful , progressive and logical way. You are working on emotion. Not fact.

What? No substance? Emotional? Yeah, talking about how the OECD agrees that NZ broadband is some of the worst in the developed world sure is useless and emotional...

Why don't you add something of use to the rest of this thread

Says the guy coming into this thread whining about "Telecom bashing".

point out ONE commecially viable application that will require the investment of Billions of $ of taxpayers money for a seperate FTTH network or should I say Ultra Fast Broadband as it is now called by the illustrious leader.

Can't be too hard to name ONE application other than porn, can it? Or is it?

As has already been said, there are numerous applications. HDTVoIP, cloud storage / backup / virtual desktop (VNC, etc), telecommuting (can involve transfer of large data files, video conferencing, etc), scientific collaboration (accessing grid networks, etc). Do you want me to go on? Oh, you only wanted one. Pick your favourite.

nzbnw:
Unfortunately it's only too easy to bag Telecom instead of trying to understand and thinking about what one types. NZ Broadband in my view IS NOT the laughing stock of the world. But the New Zealand media has to accept some of the blame here; they spread FUD and make it sound like everyone in Australia for example has ADSL 2+ broadband running at 24mbit, which is just not true.

So the current state of NZ broadband is not at all Telecom's fault? A company that had a monopoly on the nation's internet access during the 90's and the first half of the 00's? Don't get me wrong here, of course any other company in their position would have been the same. That doesn't make it right. The government of course is to blame for not doing something about it, but to imply Telecom is innocent is just ridiculous.

There's no use comparing NZ to Australia for broadband, given we're both served mostly by SCC. Oh, and we ARE the laughing stock of the world. One does not need to rely on the media to get that impression - whenever I have talked to people overseas, or seen discussions on the web, it is plain as day.

Also, not to get personal, but something tells me you're not particularly unbiased, with that avatar of yours...

Quic Broadband

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#193039 31-Jan-2009 08:49

Screeb:
teletek

Great, Geekzone's newest troll.

Actually I don't think teletek is trolling, s/he is posting his view and doing it well.

In reality I've never seen a Telecom troll on Geekzone. Au contraire....

freitasm

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#193042 31-Jan-2009 08:53

nzbnw:
richgamer: telecom always submits press releases for faster broadband, but they always leave out having higher data caps. it is amazing how the new zealand newspapers never criticise telecom for low data caps. i use between 500mb-1gb per day and i dont download any illegal torrents or software.

First let me bring back an old Geekzone fav...

\/
Now this is a press release from Telecom Wholesale, and thanks to the previous Labour led government (please let's not get into a debate here) is an operationally separate part of Telecom. That is to say, Telecom Wholesale is NOT a retail ISP. They DO NOT set retail ISP caps.

It is likely various ISP's will announce pricing and caps when they decide to launch such a product, Telecom Retail included.

As to your download, Telecom has a 40GB plan, which is more than 1GB per day, but you should be prepared to pay for it! So what's the problem?

nzbnw

I have to echo it here. I use about 100GB month and I pay for it. TelstraClear is not the cheapest one but provides a good service. What do I do? Download Windows Server 2008 SP2 beta, Windows 7 beta 32 bit and Windows 7 beta 64 bit, download full virtual machines images for testing, Geekzone database backup, Mozy backup for two laptops, Live Mesh synchronisation, iTunes movie downloads. This is about 3GB a day in traffic for someone who works from home and have a network here with five PCs.

I've seen a lot of people with 5GB/month plan that don't use in a month what we here use on a day.

As nzbnw says if you want 1GB a day change plans and be prepared to pay.

nzbnw

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#193080 31-Jan-2009 13:50

Screeb:
So the current state of NZ broadband is not at all Telecom's fault?

Perhaps, but I don't think it's completely Telecom's fault. The Government should have set in place an environment that encourages the roll out of faster broadband if they deemed it necessary. You cannot rely on private business to-do things that may not maximise their profits; it's just not going to happen, in just about any industry.

A company that had a monopoly on the nation's internet access during the 90's and the first half of the 00's?

Not in the retail market, their where other ISP's offering Dialup and Broadband services, but with broadband in the wholesale market to a point you are correct when it comes to ADSL. In Christchurch and Wellington they of course have Telstra cable networks, and now we have Mobile Broadband offerings from Vodafone (and Telecom), wireless options from other providers such as Woosh etc.

Don't get me wrong here, of course any other company in their position would have been the same. That doesn't make it right. The government of course is to blame for not doing something about it,

I agree with you.

but to imply Telecom is innocent is just ridiculous.

No one said Telecom was perfect, but you are referring to the 90's and early 00's, and you should be able to see that things have changed at Telecom over the last few years as they have been given the incentives to-do so, all be it I might not agree with the invectives provided.

There's no use comparing NZ to Australia for broadband, given we're both served mostly by SCC.

I agree that NZ media should not be comparing us with Australia, so when they stop, NZ can stop too. SCC is another matter, and as discussed in another thread, Telecom is a shareholder (all be it the largest) but not the only shareholder, and from a retail point of view does not make pricing decisions. I'm pretty sure that’s done by TNZI.

Oh, and we ARE the laughing stock of the world. One does not need to rely on the media to get that impression - whenever I have talked to people overseas, or seen discussions on the web, it is plain as day.

We can agree to disagree here, but I have been to a few countries and the internet is not always what it's cracked up to be. A number of people I have spoken to over the years (Telecom customers for example) have mentioned this on their own free will.

Also, not to get personal, but something tells me you're not particularly unbiased, with that avatar of yours...

I freely admit that. I am however helping to provide a balanced view for other readers of this thread, you cannot expect to get everything your own way, there is always two sides to every story.

Now if you would like to discuss the state of New Zealand broadband further, I suggest you create another thread as we are going OT, which is about VDSL2, something that will improve New Zealanders internet experience.

nzbnw

Screeb

698 posts

Ultimate Geek

#193090 31-Jan-2009 14:57

nzbnw:
Perhaps, but I don't think it's completely Telecom's fault. The Government should have set in place an environment that encourages the roll out of faster broadband if they deemed it necessary. You cannot rely on private business to-do things that may not maximise their profits; it's just not going to happen, in just about any industry.

I think we're agreeing here.

Not in the retail market, their where other ISP's offering Dialup and Broadband services, but with broadband in the wholesale market to a point you are correct when it comes to ADSL. In Christchurch and Wellington they of course have Telstra cable networks, and now we have Mobile Broadband offerings from Vodafone (and Telecom), wireless options from other providers such as Woosh etc.

"Competition" in the retail market is useless given it all went through Telecom wholesale. They control the phone lines and thus the prices paid for access. Dialup was good value back in the day though. TelstraClear's cable network doesn't constitute as "competition" IMO, as Telecom don't compete with them - ie their plans are the same throughout the country, and they don't seem to care what TelstraClear have in the way of cable plans - it's very "one way" (though, granted their phone prices are cheaper in cable regions than elsewhere, just not broadband prices). Mobile broadband is no competition to fixed line. Similarly to TelstraClear, wireless providers aren't nationwide.

Telecom is a shareholder (all be it the largest) but not the only shareholder, and from a retail point of view does not make pricing decisions. I'm pretty sure that’s done by TNZI.

As the majority shareholder, Telecom can do what they want with it. Something to keep in mind is that even though Telecom may pay the same price as SCC charges other ISPs (and I'm sure it does), they're essentially getting it for half price (given their 50% ownership), which means they can keep prices high without suffering it themselves.

Now if you would like to discuss the state of New Zealand broadband further, I suggest you create another thread as we are going OT

Yeah, good point.

VDSL2, something that will improve New Zealanders internet experience.

Let's hope so. But given Telecom's track record, I'm not exactly holding my breath. It's quite telling that they say "Q3 onwards" for everywhere else but the few Auckland suburbs. I can see this being strung out for many years - after all, ADSL2+ still has a few more years of installation left itself...

Behodar

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#193097 31-Jan-2009 16:01

Screeb: It's quite telling that they say "Q3 onwards" for everywhere else but the few Auckland suburbs. I can see this being strung out for many years - after all, ADSL2+ still has a few more years of installation left itself...

Something I read today (Herald?) said that it's being rolled out to major towns in Q3 and then smaller towns (with more than 500 lines) after that.

NonprayingMantis

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#193100 31-Jan-2009 16:27

"NZ Broadband is the laughing stock of the world". What ridiculous hyperbole.

We're about 19 out 30 in the OECD rankings last time I checked, and that was a while ago. With all the work since then on cabinitisation and ADSL2+ LLU etc we are probably higher than that now. 19 out of 30 is hardly laughing stock, and that is only for the OECD countries (the most developed countries in the world).
Since you say 'world' there are 195 countries in the world with means we are in the top 10% or so.

Not exactly laughing stock is it?

teletek

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Geek

#193102 31-Jan-2009 17:13

teletek:
Did I hit a raw nerve there? Don't tell me you fell for the politicians
electioneering spin. Ha ha... You did!

Screeb:
I didn't "fall" for anything. I voted National, but not because of their broadband
proposals. I do agree that a FTTH network is crucial in the coming
years, and they happen to be the only ones who are even talking about
doing it.

Maybe FTTH will be crucial in the coming years but only time will tell. Until then xDSL
technology will continue to provide the majority of the planet with enough speed
at a reasonable price point and without having to dig the ground to replace
every cable to every house.

teletek:
Everything I pointed out is true. Your reply contains nothing of substance that supports the continuation of this thread in a meaningful , progressive and logical way. You are working on emotion. Not fact.

Screeb:

What? No substance? Emotional? Yeah, talking about how the OECD agrees that NZ broadband is some of the worst in the developed world sure is useless and emotional...

Which OECD report are you quoting from when you make the claim that NZ BB is the worst in the developed world?

When I googled "OECD report new zealand broadband" the most recent link is this:

By Computerworld staff Auckland | Friday, 24 October, 2008

The latest OECD report on broadband services shows broadband penetration is growing, but New Zealand's ranking
remains unchanged.

The local rate of growth rate of broadband penetration is the sixth fastest rate in the developed world, according to the OECD, which continues to rank New Zealand 19 out of 30 for broadband penetration, with 20.4 broadband connections per 100 people.

The statistics, for the second quarter, have been welcomed by the Telecommunications Users Association.

“Although our OECD ranking for broadband penetration remains at 19th out of 30, our rate of growth at around 4% is substantially better than the OECD average,” TUANZ CEO Ernie Newman says.

teletek: Why don't you add something of use to the rest of this thread

Screeb: Says the guy coming into this thread whining about "Telecom bashing".

The only one "whining" so far has been you! The rest seem to be discussing VDSL2.

teletek: point out ONE commercially viable application that will require the investment
of Billions of $ of taxpayers money for a seperate FTTH network or
should I say Ultra Fast Broadband as it is now called by the illustrious leader.

Can't be too hard to name ONE application other than porn, can it? Or is it?

Screeb: As has already been said, there are numerous applications. HDTVoIP, cloud
storage / backup / virtual desktop (VNC, etc), telecommuting (can
involve transfer of large data files, video conferencing, etc),
scientific collaboration (accessing grid networks, etc). Do you want me
to go on? Oh, you only wanted one. Pick your favourite.

Good selection of choices. However none pass the test which is "commercially viable application that will require the investment of Billions of $ of taxpayers money for a separate FTTH network"

HDTVOIP. - Where is TVoIP now or IPTV as it was called a few years ago? Still missing in action.
No viable business case, no need for FTTH. You want HDTV movies on demand. Check your local video store. In stock now.

Cloud Storage - For what? Your photo collection, home video collection? You want to trust someone else with your personal data? Get a DVD burner or ext HDD or better yet a NAS. Run CAT5/6 or fibre if you want to each neighbour if you want to set up distributed backups all for the cost of a switch and a couple of boxes of cable. Quicker cheaper and under your own control. - No viable business case for FTTH.

Backup - As above.

VNC - Lightweight application designed to run over low speed links. Multi Megabit speeds not required. xDSL can handle this while your on your VOIP conf call, reading the news and downloading your email, all at the same time. - No viable business case for FTTH.

Telecommuting - Thin Client applications off server, VOIP, email. Minimal to medium speed for all but a few business in Movie, CAD, DTP. Majority require only low Mbps connections at the most. - Covered by xDSL tech. - No viable business case for
FTTH. Business should pay anyway not taxpayer subsidising business.

Video Conferencing - Oh yeah the old favourite. Real time video streaming only requires 1.5Mbps to provide Broadcast quality, stereo sound etc. Unless you need the end viewers to have HD quality so they can see the hairs sticking out your ears or the pimple emerging on the tip of your nose that you overlooked in the bathroom mirror that morning.

Imagine Video calls to the Boss with FTTH.

Employee: "Morning Boss, can't come in to work this morning, feeling lowsy!.

Boss: "Well you don't look very sick to me... wait a minute....... mmmm. Iris scan says you have a hangover. Stick your hand on the National IP Vital Signs Sensor and give me your vitals...... mmm... vitals look good. You trying to pull another sickie on me son? Best get your butt into the office pronto or your fired."

.... Video Call Ended.

Employee: "Blasted HDTV, IP Med and that stupid National FTTH connection. Who was the Don Key who though of that. A geek can't even pull a sickie anymore."

Scientific Collaboration: Universities already have this. FTTH not required unless you want the professors to have 365 days of holidays as opposed to the 200 they have already, at your expense already I might add. FTTH fails the test once again.

Got any more Apps?

You know personally I really don't care if you get FTTH or not because by the time it happens I'll be retiring so I get to surf the networks all day while you're out working your balls off to pay the high taxes that will be required to pay off the loans that the Guberment, you voted for, chalked up.

I can tell you right now for the nationwide FTTH network you're imagining you are looking closer to $1 trillion by the time it happens.

You laugh?

NZ Herald - Saturday Jan 31, 2009

Previous estimates of $1.89 billion for two-lane tunnels each way along the
4.5km Waterview route or $2.14 billion for three-lane links - as sought by the
Automobile Association and business groups - did not include any of those costs.
The new estimates are $2.77 billion for a 3.2km pair of two-lane tunnels and
$3.16 billion for three lanes in each direction.

$3 billion for 4.5k of Tunnel. How far do you think you're going to get tunnelling new fibre past every house in the country for $1.5 billion?

:-)

xDSL is good enough for now and the next 10 years until some Geek comes up with the wonder app that needs more than 100Mbps min. When that happens happens you'll probably be lining up to have a port in the back of your head to stick
the fiber in because you won't be able to interface fast enough using traditional input mechanisms such as keyboard, mouse, etc.

Maybe that will be the new app. Organic computing with Direct Connect VR Matrix style. Only time will tell.

Till then xDSL rocks compared to dialup and I'm happy with my ADSL1 connection.

ADSL2+ will be icing on the cake and VDSL2, well I'll be grinning from ear to ear for a week if I have one of those connections.

:-)

Screeb

698 posts

Ultimate Geek

#193103 31-Jan-2009 17:17

NonprayingMantis: "NZ Broadband is the laughing stock of the world". What ridiculous hyperbole.

We're about 19 out 30 in the OECD rankings last time I checked, and that was a while ago. With all the work since then on cabinitisation and ADSL2+ LLU etc we are probably higher than that now. 19 out of 30 is hardly laughing stock, and that is only for the OECD countries (the most developed countries in the world).
Since you say 'world' there are 195 countries in the world with means we are in the top 10% or so.

Not exactly laughing stock is it?

You can't exactly hold NZ up to third world countries and say "look, we have better internet than them!". Of course, by "world" I mean the developed world.

We're 19 out of 30 in broadband penetration, not "greatness" or something. We are one of only very few who have data caps, and such restrictive ones at that. See here: http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/BU0711/S00159.htm - "A further negative for New Zealand is that it is also one of the few OECD countries in which every broadband operator surveyed by the OECD was found to impose data or bit caps. This severely hampers the uptake of more interesting applications in healthcare, education and entertainment, as these applications are feature rich and do require more data capacity." That is the main problem with NZ's "laughing-stockness".

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