Vodafone 3G Network Failure At Toast Martinborough

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#548672 22-Nov-2011 22:37

Sort of related, sort of not - I saw this interesting description of CDMA in laymen's terms on Wikipedia, this thread reminded me of it:

"An analogy to the problem of multiple access is a room (channel) in which people wish to talk to each other simultaneously. To avoid confusion, people could take turns speaking (time division), speak at different pitches (frequency division), or speak in different languages (code division). CDMA is analogous to the last example where people speaking the same language can understand each other, but other languages are perceived as noise and rejected. Similarly, in radio CDMA, each group of users is given a shared code. Many codes occupy the same channel, but only users associated with a particular code can communicate."

Geektastic

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#548674 22-Nov-2011 22:43

mattwnz:
oxnsox:
Geektastic:
sbiddle:
Geektastic:
National roaming (as I believe it is called) is perfectly possible and has been done in several places such as the USA, UK and India.
?

National roaming is completely different to enforced?roaming at a specific event. National roaming already exists in NZ between Vodafone and 2degrees however?access control measures are present on VF sites within 2d coverage frootprints to stop accidental roaming.

??

What's enforced about it?

As a customer I expect - and am paying heavily for - a service. I expect the networks to provide it, not excuses.

Toast is known about 12 months in advance. There simply is no excuse for this sort of failure in 2011. It is unacceptable to me and it should be unacceptable to VF management.?

Maybe you could get the LTSA to add an extra few lanes of roading over the hill,and back, just for the duration of this event. Because traffic flows weren't acceptable to some people either......
It's a similar?argument.?

I love how people always compare technology with cars and roads. In a way it is similar, however in this case didn't their notwork not work at all? That would be similar to there being a slip on the rimutukas and not being able to use the road at all, and you being stuck in the Wairarapa.

But in this case, it is more akin to notified road closure. VF were aware (or should have been) that Toast was happening and that Martinborough would have 11,000 or so extra people. It has happened at the same time every year for the last 20 years.

VF has thus had ample opportunity to advise residents of Martinborough and those attending the event that there may be coverage issues and to consider what if any measures they might take to reduce the problem, such as the mobile towers mentioned above.

What we have here is simple lack of attention to detail and lack of forward planning as much as anything else.

firewire

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#548680 22-Nov-2011 23:02

Seems like we got some armchair radio engineers who think there is some magical solution to a capacity problem. It's a mini cell with a fair number of people concentrated in one area. This is a rather un-natural distribution on a normal cell network.

johnr

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#548683 22-Nov-2011 23:19

firewire: Seems like we got some armchair radio engineers who think there is some magical solution to a capacity problem. It's a mini cell with a fair number of people concentrated in one area. This is a rather un-natural distribution on a normal cell network.

We have our expert Geektastic that can add capacity on all interfaces from UU to RNC using magic fairy dust,

All very well having the cell site capacity! what about the transmission required from the cell (node B) back to the Core network (RNC)?

You still don't get the cost part do you? Sounds like you think the money gods just deposit $$$$$ into carriers bank accounts over night

Geektastic

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#548684 22-Nov-2011 23:32

johnr:
firewire: Seems like we got some armchair radio engineers who think there is some magical solution to a capacity problem. It's a mini cell with a fair number of people concentrated in one area. This is a rather un-natural distribution on a normal cell network.

We have our expert Geektastic that can add capacity on all interfaces from UU to RNC using magic fairy dust,

All very well having the cell site capacity! what about the transmission required from the cell (node B) back to the Core network (RNC)?

You still don't get the cost part do you? Sounds like you think the money gods just deposit $$$$$ into carriers bank accounts over night

I get it - I just don't much care about it as it is not my problem. If they can afford to sponsor rugby teams, costs obviously are not a concern to them.

I already pay through the nose for a service and I do not consider my role as a customer extends beyond expecting to get what I am paying for.

At the very least I expect to be advised by VF well in advance that there may be problems and to be compensated financially for the fact that they have failed to deliver.

johnr

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#548687 22-Nov-2011 23:54

You may get congestion at major events / natrual disasters, I will list some for you but can't give dates / times / location for the natural disasters which could include Earth quakes , Floods, storms , ETC

John

kiwitrc

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#548706 23-Nov-2011 04:36

So to sum this up, is it fair to say reliable mobile coverage is not available at major events anymore?

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riahon

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#548708 23-Nov-2011 06:09

There is a limit to EVERY service you pay for. If you want to make improvements with a service then voice your concerns, if they go unheeded then move on. If thousands of people follow then you are a messiah, if they don't, you're the same as everyone else.

Nothing is guaranteed and nothing is 100% perfect. When Utopia arrives let me know.

johnr

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#548709 23-Nov-2011 06:11

kiwitrc: So to sum this up, is it fair to say reliable mobile coverage is not available at major events anymore?

Congestion can happen at major events on all carriers

Geektastic

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#548722 23-Nov-2011 07:42

johnr: You may get congestion at major events / natrual disasters, I will list some for you but can't give dates / times / location for the natural disasters which could include Earth quakes , Floods, storms , ETC

John

Indeed. However, most of those things do not come with 12 months notice.....!

jjnz1

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#548723 23-Nov-2011 07:50

johnr:
kiwitrc: So to sum this up, is it fair to say reliable mobile coverage is not available at major events anymore?

Congestion can happen at major events on all carriers

I agree, people have to expect issues around big events but...

Surely something can be done for the next event, ie turn off data on all surrounding cell towers?

It just seems a bit strange that from what I read, VF was completely down with no calls or texting capacity even available. If others like Sbiddle claim data is the main culprit, why not disable it, for the greater good.

Would this not allow more people to communicate via text and maybe even call? And if that doesn't work, go one step further by disabling calling and allowing only texting.

Surely there would have been onsite techs able to do this (by thinking on their feet?).A disabled network is better than a dead one isn't it.

[Hey John, on a side note, how is my query doing with your team?]

sbiddle

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#548735 23-Nov-2011 08:37

jjnz1:
It just seems a bit strange that from what I read, VF was completely down with no calls or texting capacity even available. If others like Sbiddle claim data is the main culprit, why not disable it, for the greater good.

It's not so much data that's the culprit, but signalling, of which data generates a huge amount. A good comparison would be to compare it to an ARP or UDP broadcast flood which can cripple an ethernet network.

The key thing here however is the noise floor. Any radio engineer understands it's a fundamental issue that affects any form of wireless link, and in a CDMA based air interface in particular where the noise floor is variable rather than being fixed it creates a msssive problem.

Disabling data won't necessaraily fix the problem as it can't solve the noise floor issue with too many handsets in one place at the same time.

oxnsox

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#548742 23-Nov-2011 08:49

Geektastic: I get it - I just don't much care about it as it is not my problem. If they can afford to sponsor rugby teams, costs obviously are not a concern to them.

Actually it seems it was your problem.... otherwise why would this discussion be happening????
(Your sponsorship tilt is a red herring. You are probably well aware of the differences between marketing of a Brand and providing of a service)

I already pay through the nose for a service and I do not consider my role as a customer extends beyond expecting to get what I am paying for.

At the very least I expect to be advised by VF well in advance that there may be problems and to be compensated financially for the fact that they have failed to deliver.

I'll stick with my road analogy here.... If you read the right parts of a newspaper you'll see notices advising roadworks and temporary road closures... otherwise you simply find out a few hundred metres before you get to them. They're temporary... drive on thru, there's normal road conditions on the other side!!!

I still think you have unrealistic expectations here and you're trying to make what may have been a personal problem for you, on the day, into somebody elses.

Earlier in this thread an anology was used with an event in London. There you are not adding 100's of percentages of users to (what may well be) a single serving cell. You're increasing the load dramatically across a more compacted network of multiple cells. You may get some issues but they more likely to affect smaller geographical areas and may move within the environment.

I used a road analogy, perhaps wrongly, but my point was that their are many factors that can effect your plans for the day, from Johnr's acts-of-god thru to relying on other people (companies) to provide you with, what for you at any particular instant, may be a vital service. I've attended events where overcrowding has resulted in a poor-experience (parking, access, toilets, seating, other services), the RWC opening in Auckland is the most obvious recent example. Part of being involved (in an event) is an acceptance that things weren't going to be 'normal'.... Would you have gone if there were 70% less people... or would event organisers have not run a similarly enticing event of a similar size for that number???

You pays you money and makes your choice. And come away enriched, enlightened and (from an organisers perspective) impoverished... or maybe you come away disappointed. It's your choice whether to learn from that.....

Predated

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#548748 23-Nov-2011 09:06

I too pay Vodafone money each month and for that I also expect to be personally notified of each and every possible outage that could effect me.

p.s. what is toast martinborough? I've never heard of it

sbiddle

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#548757 23-Nov-2011 09:27

Predated: p.s. what is toast martinborough? I've never heard of it

It's a day of drunken debauchery for adults in Martinborough.

In it's early days it was a civilised wine and food festival combining a large number of vineyards in Martinborough with live bands playing at most of them, and people either walk or catch shuttle buses between the various venues.

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