Vodafone undertaking proposal: zero rate SMS, voice cut by two thirds

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#285033 24-Dec-2009 18:06

PaulBrislen: Again, that's a draft and it has yet to make its final recommendation and our offer beats those rates.

Not sure what your point is here. Are you saying we should adopt the regulated approach without going through the process? Or that the Commission's rate is better than the Undertakings?

All bets are off. The door is now closed. It is up to the Commerce Commission to make the recommendation to the Minister. Which I believe will be early in the new year.

VFNZPaulBrislen

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#285106 25-Dec-2009 10:05

The Commission asked Vodafone and Telecom (and Two Degrees) to submit a final undertaking that would unify our various points of view. We worked to do that, and the Commission came back and said they'd like to see us unify under Telecom's proposal. So we did that.

That says to me the Commission would be happy to recommend accepting the Undertakings if they were based on Telecom's proposal. They are.

The Commission has delayed reporting to the minister until February. The minister will then ask the MED to review the Commission's recommendation and finally make a decision on whether to accept or reject the recommendation.

Cheers

Paul

and Merry Christmas all!

Paul Brislen
Head of Corporate Communications
Vodafone

http://forum.vodafone.co.nz

ajw

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#285109 25-Dec-2009 11:05

PaulBrislen: The Commission asked Vodafone and Telecom (and Two Degrees) to submit a final undertaking that would unify our various points of view. We worked to do that, and the Commission came back and said they'd like to see us unify under Telecom's proposal. So we did that.

That says to me the Commission would be happy to recommend accepting the Undertakings if they were based on Telecom's proposal. They are.

The Commission has delayed reporting to the minister until February. The minister will then ask the MED to review the Commission's recommendation and finally make a decision on whether to accept or reject the recommendation.

Cheers

Paul

and Merry Christmas all!

I have read 2 degrees correspondence to the Commerce Commission they have withdrawn all previous undertakings and withdrawn from the process.

sbiddle

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#285131 25-Dec-2009 15:59

ajw:
PaulBrislen: The Commission asked Vodafone and Telecom (and Two Degrees) to submit a final undertaking that would unify our various points of view. We worked to do that, and the Commission came back and said they'd like to see us unify under Telecom's proposal. So we did that.

That says to me the Commission would be happy to recommend accepting the Undertakings if they were based on Telecom's proposal. They are.

The Commission has delayed reporting to the minister until February. The minister will then ask the MED to review the Commission's recommendation and finally make a decision on whether to accept or reject the recommendation.

Cheers

Paul

and Merry Christmas all!

I have read 2 degrees correspondence to the Commerce Commission they have withdrawn all previous undertakings and withdrawn from the process.

The irony being they never really issues any half decent submissions anyway. Their whole effort was put into trashing both Telecom and Vodafone rather than actually making any effort to come to an industry wide agreement. When they did put forward a proposal they wanted no asymmetry in pricing - and then changed their mind and decided they wanted it.

From day one 2degrees have only ever been focussed on BAK for *both* voice and SMS traffic with an a provision that a MTR rate could be agreed upon it it was under 7c per min. BAK never happened for voice and the Commerce Commission said such a decision was totally outside scope of the investigation.

I think MTR rates are too high and I think the whole MTAS investigation by the Commerce Commission has been very well done. It's just a shame the process has been hijacked by an operator who has their own agenda and managed to suck followers along with them.

ajw

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#285139 25-Dec-2009 17:13

sbiddle:
ajw:
PaulBrislen: The Commission asked Vodafone and Telecom (and Two Degrees) to submit a final undertaking that would unify our various points of view. We worked to do that, and the Commission came back and said they'd like to see us unify under Telecom's proposal. So we did that.

That says to me the Commission would be happy to recommend accepting the Undertakings if they were based on Telecom's proposal. They are.

The Commission has delayed reporting to the minister until February. The minister will then ask the MED to review the Commission's recommendation and finally make a decision on whether to accept or reject the recommendation.

Cheers

Paul

and Merry Christmas all!

I have read 2 degrees correspondence to the Commerce Commission they have withdrawn all previous undertakings and withdrawn from the process.

The irony being they never really issues any half decent submissions anyway. Their whole effort was put into trashing both Telecom and Vodafone rather than actually making any effort to come to an industry wide agreement. When they did put forward a proposal they wanted no asymmetry in pricing - and then changed their mind and decided they wanted it.

From day one 2degrees have only ever been focussed on BAK for *both* voice and SMS traffic with an a provision that a MTR rate could be agreed upon it it was under 7c per min. BAK never happened for voice and the Commerce Commission said such a decision was totally outside scope of the investigation.

I think MTR rates are too high and I think the whole MTAS investigation by the Commerce Commission has been very well done. It's just a shame the process has been hijacked by an operator who has their own agenda and managed to suck followers along with them.

Namely Vfone and Telecom.

ajw

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#285142 25-Dec-2009 17:29

ajw:
sbiddle:
ajw:
PaulBrislen: The Commission asked Vodafone and Telecom (and Two Degrees) to submit a final undertaking that would unify our various points of view. We worked to do that, and the Commission came back and said they'd like to see us unify under Telecom's proposal. So we did that.

That says to me the Commission would be happy to recommend accepting the Undertakings if they were based on Telecom's proposal. They are.

The Commission has delayed reporting to the minister until February. The minister will then ask the MED to review the Commission's recommendation and finally make a decision on whether to accept or reject the recommendation.

Cheers

Paul

and Merry Christmas all!

I have read 2 degrees correspondence to the Commerce Commission they have withdrawn all previous undertakings and withdrawn from the process.

The irony being they never really issues any half decent submissions anyway. Their whole effort was put into trashing both Telecom and Vodafone rather than actually making any effort to come to an industry wide agreement. When they did put forward a proposal they wanted no asymmetry in pricing - and then changed their mind and decided they wanted it.

From day?one 2degrees have only ever been focussed on BAK for *both* voice and SMS traffic with an a provision that a MTR rate could be agreed upon it it was under?7c per min. BAK never happened for? voice?and?the Commerce Commission said such a decision was totally outside scope of the investigation.

I think MTR rates are too high and I think the whole MTAS investigation by the Commerce Commission has been?very well done. It's just a shame the process has been hijacked by an operator who has their own agenda and managed to suck followers along with them.

Namely Vfone and Telecom.

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ajw

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#285143 25-Dec-2009 17:32

@sbiddle

Read the correspondence from 2 degrees to the Commerce Commission. Read it and you will see how the other mobile operators changed the rules.

http://www.comcom.govt.nz//IndustryRegulation/Telecommunications/Investigations/MobiletoMobileTermination/ContentFiles/Documents/2degrees%20letter%20to%20Commission%2016%20December%202009.PDF

sbiddle

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#285152 25-Dec-2009 18:37

ajw: @sbiddle

Read the correspondence from 2 degrees to the Commerce Commission. Read it and you will see how the other mobile operators changed the rules.

http://www.comcom.govt.nz//IndustryRegulation/Telecommunications/Investigations/MobiletoMobileTermination/ContentFiles/Documents/2degrees%20letter%20to%20Commission%2016%20December%202009.PDF

I've read that - infact I've read every submission and document on the MTAS page since the investigation was launched including the draft document from June on several occasions.

I'm not quite sure what rules were "changed". I'm also not sure whether you understand my point that 2degrees have a fundamentally different approach to MTAS than either Vodafone, Telecom or the Commerce Commission.

2degrees want pure BAK for both voice and SMS and aren't going to be happy until they get that. The Commerce Commission have ruled out BAK for voice at this time and 2degrees seem to have a huge problem dealing with this issue.

They also have fundamental issues with Glide Paths and want immediate drops in rates. They even go as far as saying (in the above document) that the Commerce Commission accepting a glide path is an "about face" by the Commerce Commision, yet the Commerce Commission made it very clear that glide paths would be considered as an implimentation issue and that cost paths are appropiate also.

I'm no Vodafone or Telecom fanboi if you think I am and I have absolutely no involvement with either company. I believe that rates in New Zealand are too high and should be lowered. I just totally object to the approach 2degrees have taken by attempting to hijack the investigation and then throwing their toys out of their cot when the Commerce Commission doesn't agree with their views.

I'll have a bet now with anybody that if these voluntary undertakings from Vodafone and Telecom are not accepted but instead the Minister recommends regulation and sets rates that 2degrees will still not be happy and claim there has been an injustice and that everybody's ganging up on them. It's the approach they've used for the last 9 years and they certainly aren't going to change. A leopard never changes it's spots..

ajw

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#285169 25-Dec-2009 20:08

@sbiddle

I'll have a bet now with anybody that if these voluntary undertakings from Vodafone and Telecom are not accepted but instead the Minister recommends regulation and sets rates that 2degrees will still not be happy and claim there has been an injustice and that everybody's ganging up on them. It's the approach they've used for the last 9 years and they certainly aren't going to change. A leopard never changes it's spots..

I do hope the Commerce Commission recommends regulation and the Minister goes ahead with this recommendation. After all this issue has been on and off the agenda for the last seven years.
What has been achieved with this latest investigation, after fourteen months the end result is zero. Thousands of dollars wasted, copious amounts of time wasted, and still the circus continues. Is it any wonder the country is going to the pack. While the Commerce Commission dithers mobile phone users continue to get ripped off. Go figure. Isn't it amazing how 2 degrees can offer prepay rates at half the price of the incumbents. Of course I exclude Vfones best mates and TXT 4000 which as you know are on net pricing.

sbiddle

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#285171 25-Dec-2009 20:49

You've fallen into the same trap as many others - trying to establish a link between retail prices and MTR costs. No such link can really be established anywhere in the world. There are countries that have high MTRs and low calling costs, likewise there are places where there are low MTRs and high calling costs.

Their is no retail price regulation in New Zealand for mobile. It doesn't matter what the Commerce Commission set MTR rates at, they can't dictate retail pricing. With the Vodafone and Telecom duopoly that existed MTR rates could have been 1c per minute for voice calling and 1c for SMS and it could have made absolutely no difference to the retail pricing.

Why? Because traffic flows between both networks were both very similair so in the real world they effectively cancelled each other out. SMS traffic was within a few % and while there was an inbalance in voice traffic (the numbers were restricted by the ComCom so I won't post them) in one direction but this can be attributed solely to one network having a very large number of prepay customers who TXT only and make absolutely no voice calls.

Both networks could have easily been offering cheaper pricing for the last few years but have chosen not to do so. Their MTR rates have had very little to do with this. Telecoms relaunch of unlimited TXT including off-net which results in them having some customers who generate "negative" revenue is proof of this, Telecom know that when that person does send a TXT off-net that they will probably receive a reply back that generates them inbound revenue.

Lower MTR rates won't necessarily drive prices down. Virtual operators such as CallPlus and Compass are already offering 24/7 rates in the ~25cpm range which is significantly less than Vodafone are offering despite using the same network. There already is cheap pricing out there, it's just unfortunate that neither Telecom or Vodafone are directly offering similair pricing to their customers. Voice usage in NZ is lower in NZ than many other countries, even when we factor in some of the direct cheap on net deals that exist.

Regulation isn't necessarily the best answer. There is very little now in the differnces between the Commission's proposed deals and what Vodafone and Telecom have proposed. There are pros and cons to their offerings and what they proposed. Somebody has to do the hard years deciding what the best option really is, bearing in mind the Commission have said they would far prefer an industry led resolution rather than regulation.

ajw

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#285173 25-Dec-2009 20:53

sbiddle: You've fallen into the same trap as many others - trying to establish a link between retail prices and MTR costs. No such link can really be established anywhere in the world. There are countries that have high MTRs and low calling costs, likewise there are places where there are low MTRs and high calling costs.

Their is no retail price regulation in New Zealand for mobile. It doesn't matter what the Commerce Commission set MTR rates at, they can't dictate retail pricing. With the Vodafone and Telecom duopoly that existed MTR rates could have been 1c per minute for voice calling and 1c for SMS and it could have made absolutely no difference to the retail pricing.

Why? Because traffic flows between both networks were both very similair so in the real world they effectively cancelled each other out. SMS traffic was within a few % and while there was an inbalance in voice traffic (the numbers were restricted by the ComCom so I won't post them) in one direction but this can be attributed solely to one network having a very large number of prepay customers who TXT only and make absolutely no voice calls.

Both networks could have easily been offering cheaper pricing for the last few years but have chosen not to do so. Their MTR rates have had very little to do with this. Telecoms relaunch of unlimited TXT including off-net which results in them having some customers who generate "negative" revenue is proof of this, Telecom know that when that person does send a TXT off-net that they will probably receive a reply back that generates them inbound revenue.

Lower MTR rates won't necessarily drive prices down. Virtual operators such as CallPlus and Compass are already offering 24/7 rates in the ~25cpm range which is significantly less than Vodafone are offering despite using the same network. There already is cheap pricing out there, it's just unfortunate that neither Telecom or Vodafone are directly offering similair pricing to their customers. Voice usage in NZ is lower in NZ than many other countries, even when we factor in some of the direct cheap on net deals that exist.

Regulation isn't necessarily the best answer. There is very little now in the differnces between the Commission's proposed deals and what Vodafone and Telecom have proposed. There are pros and cons to their offerings and what they proposed. Somebody has to do the hard years deciding what the best option really is, bearing in mind the Commission have said they would far prefer an industry led resolution rather than regulation.

Should the Minister decide to regulate time will tell.

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savag3

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#285178 25-Dec-2009 21:38

Given that even the final undertakings submitted 16 December are still reasonably different to each other especially in the non price terms aren't the telcos setting themselves up to be regulated? I think that the govt is ready to regulate and I can't believe the telcos appear to be giving them an excuse to do exactly that. A bit like Telecom getting unbundled.

timestyles

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#285182 25-Dec-2009 22:20

savag3: Given that even the final undertakings submitted 16 December are still reasonably different to each other especially in the non price terms aren't the telcos setting themselves up to be regulated? I think that the govt is ready to regulate and I can't believe the telcos appear to be giving them an excuse to do exactly that. A bit like Telecom getting unbundled.

I can't see regulation with a National Government.

ajw

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#285213 26-Dec-2009 07:49

timestyles:
savag3: Given that even the final undertakings submitted 16 December are still reasonably different to each other especially in the non price terms aren't the telcos setting themselves up to be regulated? I think that the govt is ready to regulate and I can't believe the telcos appear to be giving them an excuse to do exactly that. A bit like Telecom getting unbundled.

I can't see regulation with a National Government.

Their regulating the electricity sector, aren't they. This National government is very unlike previous National governments. Like Socialists in drag with the Maori party calling the shots.

ajw

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#285214 26-Dec-2009 07:54

timestyles:
savag3: Given that even the final undertakings submitted 16 December are still reasonably different to each other especially in the non price terms aren't the telcos setting themselves up to be regulated? I think that the govt is ready to regulate and I can't believe the telcos appear to be giving them an excuse to do exactly that. A bit like Telecom getting unbundled.

I can't see regulation with a National Government.

Their regulating the electricity aren't they. This National govt have been like Socialists in drag with the Maori party calling the shots and running the country. The whole investigation process into MTR's has been a circus from start to finish and even Vfone was threatening legal action unless they got their own way.
Regulate and be done with it.

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