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#646565 26-Jun-2012 19:03

freitasm: The point is that DonG spent a fair bit of time last year complaining about his personal experience with a certain ISP and lack of speed, and after some digging the community managed to find the bottleneck was his own equipment, which was limiting speeds to less than half his line was capable.

Yip MF's quite right... we had a power cut here and when it came back it toasted the box I was using as a gateway/router.

I had an SPA2102 at hand and realised it was a router, so just put it in place to act as a router until I got the replacement Mikrotik programmed up.

With 100mbit interfaces on it, it never occurred to me that the Cisco Linksys SPA2102 would only route 6.5% line rate, or 6.5mbits/s.

The joke was on me and I'm guessing I'll be buying rounds of beer on the bar for decades to come over that one.

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#646566 26-Jun-2012 19:04

techmeister:Personally I believe that VOIP will not be the replacement for the PSTN voice service at all (sorry VFX, 2talk), it will probably be the mobile nerworks as soon as the main providers get with rest of the world and drop their prices.

You clearly have a very different view of the industry to everybody else I know in it. How do you expect customers to obtain a voice service in the fibre world, keep their copper connection just for voice?

You also need to define "PSTN" if you're going to make a statement like that. While much of our voice traffic will still be switched by NEAX switches for a few years yet there are thousands of customers in NZ already using VoIP without even realising it. If you have a POTS phone service from TCL or Orcon there is a good chance it's running straight back into their IP core, and likewise you could have a POTS line from Telecom that's actually IP from the cabinet back into the new IP NEAX linecards. With the new IP baseband service and rollout of ISAM-V cards you will see an increasing number of POTS connections that for all intent purposes are VoIP calls and go nowhere near the legacy PSTN.

Every phone line in NZ was supposed to already be IP by now, but Telecom's NGN IMS project died a rather dreadful death. In it's pre split state Telecom provided binding undertakings committing to shutting down the entire NEAX PSTN network by the end of 2020. Some recent developments may see that change, but products such as ISDN are already on their deathbead with timeframes already in place to migrate customers to SIP solutions.

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#646577 26-Jun-2012 19:12

DonGould: I had an SPA2102 at hand and realised it was a router, so just put it in place to act as a router until I got the replacement Mikrotik programmed up.

With 100mbit interfaces on it, it never occurred to me that the Cisco Linksys SPA2102 would only route 6.5% line rate, or 6.5mbits/s.

The joke was on me and I'm guessing I'll be buying rounds of beer on the bar for decades to come over that one.

At least you can see the funny side of it I guess Don. A few years back I tried one of those for the first time and noticed how slowly all the internal pages appeared on the screen. After that, I figured it wouldn't be much chop as a router, and kept it solely for ATA duties.

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#646659 26-Jun-2012 21:04

techmeister: Personally I believe that VOIP will not be the replacement for the PSTN voice service at all (sorry VFX, 2talk), it will probably be the mobile nerworks as soon as the main providers get with rest of the world and drop their prices.

In my view we're heading in the direction of voice being nothing more than another data application just as every other service is now.

We're now past the point where our mobile providers are going to drop the cost of mobile calls to the point you're thinking.

I see all the voice standards converging eventually, skype, SIP, blar, pick your voice protocol.

Number dialing is going to be with us for a while to come, but to me a number is just going to become associated with an end point where voice traffic is to be delivered. Same as a@example.com is for email and email gets delivered to where ever I have a client running.

Skype does the same thing now. I run the same skype account in 3 places at once.

Trying calling 03 348 7235. It heads over at least two different data networks now and I just pick it up on what ever client I have to hand. In some cases that's my mobile, in others it's a cordless on my ATA.

I really see ENUM being the next step in the evolution.

Mav is right about latency. Routing calls to Auckland and back is just silly when the traffic only has to go from me to the TCL BRAS and back across town to the person I'm calling on their ATA.

We really need to stop sending traffic to Auckland that doesn't need to be going there.

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#646674 26-Jun-2012 21:37

maverick: And here lies my concern around deployment models Don, as an industry we are looking to replace fixed line PSTN services with a SIP solution, that means this solution need to mimic the basic functionality of the current analogue services as well as bringing the feature sets that the the TDM network can never match, to do that yes you do need to do a lot of work and actually understand the full requirement around what is already the PTC requirements around telephony and how this reflects back into the ICA (Interconnect agreements) that carriers have in place for PTC 331 interconnects, Cisco provides a huge ability to be able to support what is required, 4 settings I'm afraid doesn't cut it for a fixed line replacement service, but getting it right takes time and an understanding of what these parameters do, don't blame the equipment if its actually the back end processes that could be causing the problem.

SIP Acc/Password/SIPServer/Choose New Zealand Setup

That's all I should have to do. 4 Settings.

Any more than that and we really really need to have a good look at the protocol.

maverick:
To be fair to you though unless you work in a carrier you will never fullly understand the requirements to comply with the ICA's nor should you you would hope that the carrier does this for you,

However you just seem to want to get a dial tone and this is good enough.... and this is why I have a problem with your deployment philosophy, I applaud your enthusiasm but cant abide your methodology and your reasons behind it because IMHO it detracts from the Technology as a whole, what it actually does is compromise the integrity of the Telco environment in NZ by setting the technology up as a poor mans replacement service, i.e doesn't work the same, doesn't sound the same , bit flakey... it isn't when its deployed correctly !!.

I've been working with telephone equipment for 25 years.

I totally agree with you that there are people who are not happy if they don't dial 1 for an outside line and hear the exact tone plan that a NEAX delivers.

Initially trained to set up Philips SBX12/30/42's, I thought we'll be up against it when we try to get user acceptance on an Ericsson BCS150 with its different sounding tone plan, no DTMF tones on dialing and no ability to ring an analogue bell. I was wrong.

When Panasonic made us dial 9 on their 308 and 616 systems I wondered how it got PTC when you can't dial 1111. Again, I was wrong.

While I agree that a small group of technical people are very protective of the whole ideology of "The New Zealand Telephone System", it took me a decade to get is hammered into me, out of me, that it's little more than a small bunch of people trying to protect a patch and in fact the great unwash really really really don't care if there is more value in something else.

maverick:

The term cowboys is used a lot in the tradesman industry, we will get to a point where we will have SIP cowboys and then the industry my industry gets a bad name because we allowed bad deployment practises from day one for SIP, just because some think that having dial tone and the ability to make a call in or out is the only requirement doesn't make it right and as Service providers we have obligation to maintain the integrity of the Telco network in NZ.

Ok, if we want to have a bash at the whole Cowboy thing:

* Reverse decadic dialing just so that we don't have to pay a license fee to have the numbers in the same order as the rest of the world.
* 0800,0900 and other dial plan choices that put us out of step with the rest of the world.
* 0508 - Don't even get me started on that one...
* A totally different tone plan and line levels from the major markets that caused us to have to 'special order' ever bit of phone equipment for 100 years, causing us to pay higher prices than our major trading partners.
* ATM - Don't even get me started on cell size choice on that one, just because no one could agree - I'll leave that rant for Simon Hackett
* PTC testing - now that was one of the best rots out there. Blowing up gear just to be sure to be sure even thought it all came with any amount of international testing and ISO standards, though as I understand it we have sorted most of that now.
* Locked demarcation points - The cost that imposed on customers wanting a choice was just stupid. Personally I loved the rows of BT sockets that Telecom would install to hand your phone lines to you to go back in to a krone block to jumper back into the PABX... took us half a decade to convince the network techs to just tag the pairs on the MDF and we could be trusted to do our own cross jumpering... this was after letting them do stuff and having them cause fire department call outs when they knocked off monitored fire systems because some idiot made them run around and collect up all the on site cable records.
* System passwords - a personal fav, where Telecom would sell a customer a PABX and then refused to let them have the passwords to their own system... but also refused to program up half the feature set, rendering the PABX as dumb as the system it had replaced. (nothing an eprom programmer couldn't fix).

I could go on, but you get the general idea... Yip, call me a cowboy, I was inspired by the best of the best in the biggest carriers in the country.

maverick:
I know you wont agree with that but that's my humble opinion, This is also not a personal attack on you at all Don but probably it appears that way (Mods can kick me if they wish) it is purely based on your methodology so please take my comments that way,

At the end of the day, I'm interested in what the customer wants, you're interested in what you feel the customer should have in their best interests.

But what I'm most interested in is customers having choice.

If bringing choice is being a cowboy then saddle up!

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#646675 26-Jun-2012 21:40

DOD ... that brought a smile to my face .. Can I use that

All yours... feel free to use it with Strategy Directors everywhere....

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#646705 26-Jun-2012 22:24

freitasm:
techmeister:
freitasm: [sarcasm]

Let me guess Don... You are still using the Linksys SPA2102?

[/sarcasm]

VFX use spa2102's and WRP400, so not sure what point is being made here.

The point is that DonG spent a fair bit of time last year complaining about his personal experience with a certain ISP and lack of speed, and after some digging the community managed to find the bottleneck was his own equipment, which was limiting speeds to less than half his line was capable.

It comes down to if you are an ISP and let your customers select their own equipment then these customers have to take responsibility as well.

When VFX provides their equipment you get the guarantee that performance will be adequate to the service being provided. This is not different from old Telecom providing their own handsets with Telepermit stamped on them.

When a VoIP provider comes to the game without having an end to end solution then things will break at some point.

Ah.... did not know that, just trying to stick up for Don (the little guy, like me)
It'a all about choice I guess, long live 2talk.

DonGould

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#646713 26-Jun-2012 22:35

techmeister:

Ah.... did not know that, just trying to stick up for Don (the little guy, like me)
It'a all about choice I guess, long live 2talk.

Thanks and +1 for a provider whos platform is build on FLOSS!!!

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techmeister

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#646730 26-Jun-2012 22:53

sbiddle:
techmeister:Personally I believe that VOIP will not be the replacement for the PSTN voice service at all (sorry VFX, 2talk), it will probably be the mobile nerworks as soon as the main providers get with rest of the world and drop their prices.

You clearly have a very different view of the industry to everybody else I know in it. How do you expect customers to obtain a voice service in the fibre world, keep their copper connection just for voice?

You also need to define "PSTN" if you're going to make a statement like that. While much of our voice traffic will still be switched by NEAX switches for a few years yet there are thousands of customers in NZ already using VoIP without even realising it. If you have a POTS phone service from TCL or Orcon there is a good chance it's running straight back into their IP core, and likewise you could have a POTS line from Telecom that's actually IP from the cabinet back into the new IP NEAX linecards. With the new IP baseband service and rollout of ISAM-V cards you will see an increasing number of POTS connections that for all intent purposes are VoIP calls and go nowhere near the legacy PSTN.

Every phone line in NZ was supposed to already be IP by now, but Telecom's NGN IMS project died a rather dreadful death. In it's pre split state Telecom provided binding undertakings committing to shutting down the entire NEAX PSTN network by the end of 2020. Some recent developments may see that change, but products such as ISDN are already on their deathbead with timeframes already in place to migrate customers to SIP solutions.

No copper connection, just mobile phone needed for home users.
You only need to look overseas what is happening.
I think VOIP will always be there especially for business, in fact I have a home line that does not get switched buy a NEAX switch and because of that I get 20 phone features for free care of the Callplus network, however it still has the limitations of a PSTN line so it is still PSTN as far as the end user is concerned.
I am not in the industry, so I don't know much but if Telecom get their way most users will still be on
an analog phone line for the next 20 years and at $50 a month (or no broadband) why not?

Now what did happen to Telecom's NGN IMS project?

techmeister

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#646746 27-Jun-2012 00:41

DonGould:
techmeister:

Ah.... did not know that, just trying to stick up for Don (the little guy, like me)
It'a all about choice I guess, long live 2talk.

Thanks and +1 for a provider whos platform is build on FLOSS!!!

Open source rocks!!

sbiddle

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#646762 27-Jun-2012 06:54

techmeister:
DonGould:
techmeister:

Ah.... did not know that, just trying to stick up for Don (the little guy, like me)
It'a all about choice I guess, long live 2talk.

Thanks and +1 for a provider whos platform is build on FLOSS!!!

Open source rocks!!

Just because a product is open source doesn't automatically make something a better product.

I work with a large number of Asterisk deployments and have used the product since 2004 so like to think I know a thing or two about it. Asterisk (and Freeswitch) are great products but it doesn't mean they are carrier grade products - they are both far from it.

I'm not aware of Broadworks having issues such as the Asterisk DNS issue that's now been in existance for the entire life of Asterisk and still isn't resolved.

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#646763 27-Jun-2012 07:05

However you just seem to want to get a dial tone and this is good enough....

Hey Maverick,

That was a great post regarding deployment technologies a page or so back. This line caught my eye and got me wondering about the average consumer in the world today.

These days mobile phones proliferate and although they "mostly" work there are times when there is no signal and the consumer cannot get a dial tone. This may have lowered users expectation around a "fixed line" as well. The end user perhaps doesn't expect the same level of service as they did in the past.

Low cost airlines are an example of this: "We will do our best to get you there but if we can't then you are on your own".

Perhaps the average consumer doesn't want to pay for all the back end stuff that contributes to a resilient network these days and are happy to accept that sometimes things just won't work? They do with airlines and cellular networks.

Cheers, Matt.

My views (except when I am looking out their windows) are not those of my employer.

maverick

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#646779 27-Jun-2012 07:51

Really good point Matt and in today's economic environment that has plenty of merit, but you also see a lot more complaints , fair go , crap service complaints as well it seems, so it is a double edge sword.

I also think a couple here are missing the point as well, I am not trying to highlight opensource as an evil bad thing practice far from it, its great to be able to deliver services like 2talk does on this platform, but realistically it will never be a platform of choice for Telcos to deliver the reliability, scalability , backend SLA for commercial customers and a mass deployment that is required going forward. The real point I'm trying to push is the end deployment model needs to improve to make sure the technology transformation from traditional PSTN to SIP is a success but some deployment methods make the move seem a bit flakey when it all it takes is people that know what they are doing and do the work to get it right and comply with certain basic Telco standards.

@Don,

"SIP Acc/Password/SIPServer/Choose New Zealand Setup
That's all I should have to do. 4 Settings."

yes your right Don !! that's exactly what I'm saying !! but to have that you need to do the work to allow that to happen with the CPE equipment and that's what doesn't seem to be happening, in your case you are learning and deploying on the fly as we see from the time you have been here, your skills and deployment I hope are getting better as you pick up things

@Techmeister
"Open source rocks!!" yes it does and its a great product, its also very dangerous in a end user environment, I seem to remember you yourself had some issues with getting hacked through this very platform did you not, did it rock then :), how is your basic user or SIP cowboy going to fair when he starts pushing this out to the Ma and Pa's as a cheap alt service ? will you be responsible for the costs as a dealer if you had deployed this same system in a business and they got hacked would you be responsible I as a customer would hold you accountable for an improperly secured system ... , again I harp back to proper deployment models and really knowing what you are doing, because if you don't then all those cheap savings go out the door when you get that large bill for those calls to Afghanistan Mobiles at $5 a minute

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#646784 27-Jun-2012 08:05

Open Source rocks. Closed source rocks. It's not how it is developed/released but how it is used.

Does open source rocks for you because

a) you can change it and contribute back to community or
b) because you get it for free

If you answer (a) then you are in the true spirit of FOSS. If you only pick (b) then you have a situation where you have a hidden cost but don't know... That's why most FOSS companies make money out of selling support and services ;)

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#646787 27-Jun-2012 08:07

freitasm: Open Source rocks. Closed source rocks. It's not how it is developed/released but how it is used.

Does open source rocks for you because

a) you can change it and contribute back to community or
b) because you get it for free

If you answer (a) then you are in the true spirit of FOSS. If you only pick (b) then you have a situation where you have a hidden cost but don't know... That's why most FOSS companies make money out of selling support and services ;)

Thank you ... Exactly

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