ZOMG we need those anti-terror surveillance laws right now!

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#1199102 17-Dec-2014 13:36

heylinb4nz: ... which can be summerised as

a) lots of laws because I want to feel safe and the government need to protect me

b) limited laws because I value my freedom and governments abuse power

There is the third option

c) lots of laws because I take no interest in politics and think its some strange game of New Zealand's Got Talent and I don't realize that the role of a politician is to pass laws even pointless ones because that is their job description and they have a need to show that they did something otherwise they won't get elected again, and in turn the politicians will always do as much as they can get away with under urgency hoping that people won't notice whether it's a tax rise on cigarettes or surveillance laws.

heylinb4nz

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#1199104 17-Dec-2014 13:39

Geektastic: They even train on exactly the same range I do - we hire it to them...!

But they use the special targets with balaclavas and shotguns that we civilians aren't allowed to use, therefore they are better trained for real life ;)

I doubt many of them would actually pass qualification if they used standard IPSC targets stationary let alone under pressure of a timer and accurate fire, while on the move with compulsory reload and various shooting positions.

But hey thats what the superhero uniform is for (the special powers)

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#1199108 17-Dec-2014 13:42

Mass Surveillance for no reason is wrong and no democratic Government should participate in same. However things are not normal, we are in the middle of a global war which New Zealand is not immune.
There is no battle lines and the enemy does not wear uniforms. The technology available to them allows them to plan control and direct their campaign with speed. They do not follow any perceived rules of war.
Early detection of any attack is vital to allow the Government and our security forces to react and defend our people against any action by terror groups or individuals.

However surveillance is not enough, it is pointless detecting attacks if we do not have the resources to react and defeat any attack, therefore along with increased surveillance powers there needs to be an increase in our defence assets and abilities.

If folks believe we are somehow immune they are deluded, If folks believe we are prepared they are deluded, if folks believe we have the resources now to deal with it they are deluded.

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#1199109 17-Dec-2014 13:43

heylinb4nz:
Geektastic: They even train on exactly the same range I do - we hire it to them...!

But they use the special targets with balaclavas and shotguns that we civilians aren't allowed to use, therefore they are better trained for real life ;)

I doubt many of them would actually pass qualification if they used standard IPSC targets stationary let alone under pressure of a timer and accurate fire, while on the move with compulsory reload and various shooting positions.

But hey thats what the superhero uniform is for (the special powers)

You hate the police we get that, but hey they will still help you.

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#1199110 17-Dec-2014 13:46

heylinb4nz:
Geektastic: They even train on exactly the same range I do - we hire it to them...!

But they use the special targets with balaclavas and shotguns that we civilians aren't allowed to use, therefore they are better trained for real life ;)

I doubt many of them would actually pass qualification if they used standard IPSC targets stationary let alone under pressure of a timer and accurate fire, while on the move with compulsory reload and various shooting positions.

But hey thats what the superhero uniform is for (the special powers)

you've missed the point of these groups.

it's not the individual. one Rambo will die very soon. so will 100,000 rambos.

they are a group trained to move and breath and fight as an organism, stripped of any individual identity as soon as they showed up for their first military drill.

that is quite powerful. when they have no individual identity and don't care what you say or think about themself

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#1199111 17-Dec-2014 13:48

I kick a ball at the same ground as an All Black too

roobarb

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#1199113 17-Dec-2014 13:49

KiwiNZ: However things are not normal, we are in the middle of a global war which New Zealand is not immune.

I had not noticed the rationing coupons or conscription papers.

What I had noticed was an illegal invasion of a country without UN authorisation and no leader being held accountable.

I had also noticed much cheerleading for the overthrow of various democratically elected leaders and then being shocked by how it was done or what replaced them.

Cold wars, hot wars, wars by proxy, global wars on tactics, I can't think of any years that did not have wars.

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heylinb4nz

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#1199115 17-Dec-2014 13:51

KiwiNZ: Mass Surveillance for no reason is wrong and no democratic Government should participate in same. However things are not normal, we are in the middle of a global war which New Zealand is not immune.
There is no battle lines and the enemy does not wear uniforms. The technology available to them allows them to plan control and direct their campaign with speed. They do not follow any perceived rules of war.
Early detection of any attack is vital to allow the Government and our security forces to react and defend our people against any action by terror groups or individuals.

However surveillance is not enough, it is pointless detecting attacks if we do not have the resources to react and defeat any attack, therefore along with increased surveillance powers there needs to be an increase in our defence assets and abilities.

If folks believe we are somehow immune they are deluded, If folks believe we are prepared they are deluded, if folks believe we have the resources now to deal with it they are deluded.

Stop fear mongering, people are more likely to be killed on our roads, or king hit in town going about their business, wasted money and wasted legislation that does nothing except give government more powers to abuse.

You want defence assets on the ground ? then why not condone military curfew and armed presence by your government protectors on the streets of NZ until we have got rid of all the terrorists.

JimmyC

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#1199130 17-Dec-2014 13:52

heylinb4nz:
Why dont people get the word "Training" here ?

a young constable can be trusted with a Glock 17 and he gets about 100 rounds a year to shoot \ practice.

Yet your average CCW holder \ Competition Shooter in the states trains monthly in multiple tactics shoots IPSC, IDPA, Speed Steel, ServiceMatch 3gun, is multiple weapon disciplined and has thousands of rounds per year shot.

Which one would you want in a room ??

Neither, because I don't want anyone who shoots targets for a hobby holding the balance of life in a crisis situation, regardless of their "training". Yes, in extremely rare situations a young constable may find themselves in the unenviable position of having to discharge a firearm at a nutter to save their, or someone elses life, but in a hostage situation like the one in Sydney, response is handled by the likes of AOS and STG, and possibly even the SAS if it gets that bad. They are professionals. Not weekend warriors with a gun fetish.

ajobbins

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#1199131 17-Dec-2014 13:53

KiwiNZ: Mass Surveillance for no reason is wrong and no democratic Government should participate in same. However things are not normal, we are in the middle of a global war which New Zealand is not immune.
There is no battle lines and the enemy does not wear uniforms. The technology available to them allows them to plan control and direct their campaign with speed. They do not follow any perceived rules of war.
Early detection of any attack is vital to allow the Government and our security forces to react and defend our people against any action by terror groups or individuals.

However surveillance is not enough, it is pointless detecting attacks if we do not have the resources to react and defeat any attack, therefore along with increased surveillance powers there needs to be an increase in our defence assets and abilities.

If folks believe we are somehow immune they are deluded, If folks believe we are prepared they are deluded, if folks believe we have the resources now to deal with it they are deluded.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that NZ is immune or not at risk. The point is that agencies already have/had enough information to stop the Boston bombers, the Sydney guy (and probably others they actually go right and we don't know about) without obtaining additional powers that severely infringe on liberties. Powers that ultimately are very unlikely to actually achieve what those seeking them portray, and leave open significant and serious risks for innocent citizens.

The fact is that many of the agencies charged with keeping us and our friends overseas safe have been incompetent at identifying and reacting to threats staring them in the face. The solution to that is not to give them more power. In fact, if you flood them with more information from mass collection, there is a very real risk that there is too much noise and they are more likely to miss something.

Twitter: ajobbins

heylinb4nz

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#1199134 17-Dec-2014 13:54

joker97:
heylinb4nz:
Geektastic: They even train on exactly the same range I do - we hire it to them...!

But they use the special targets with balaclavas and shotguns that we civilians aren't allowed to use, therefore they are better trained for real life ;)

I doubt many of them would actually pass qualification if they used standard IPSC targets stationary let alone under pressure of a timer and accurate fire, while on the move with compulsory reload and various shooting positions.

But hey thats what the superhero uniform is for (the special powers)

you've missed the point of these groups.

it's not the individual. one Rambo will die very soon. so will 100,000 rambos.

they are a group trained to move and breath and fight as an organism, stripped of any individual identity as soon as they showed up for their first military drill.

that is quite powerful. when they have no individual identity and don't care what you say or think about themself

We are talking AOS and beat cops not US Navy Seals

MikeB4

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#1199139 17-Dec-2014 13:58

ajobbins:
KiwiNZ: Mass Surveillance for no reason is wrong and no democratic Government should participate in same. However things are not normal, we are in the middle of a global war which New Zealand is not immune.
There is no battle lines and the enemy does not wear uniforms. The technology available to them allows them to plan control and direct their campaign with speed. They do not follow any perceived rules of war.
Early detection of any attack is vital to allow the Government and our security forces to react and defend our people against any action by terror groups or individuals.

However surveillance is not enough, it is pointless detecting attacks if we do not have the resources to react and defeat any attack, therefore along with increased surveillance powers there needs to be an increase in our defence assets and abilities.

If folks believe we are somehow immune they are deluded, If folks believe we are prepared they are deluded, if folks believe we have the resources now to deal with it they are deluded.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that NZ is immune or not at risk. The point is that agencies already have/had enough information to stop the Boston bombers, the Sydney guy (and probably others they actually go right and we don't know about) without obtaining additional powers that severely infringe on liberties. Powers that ultimately are very unlikely to actually achieve what those seeking them portray, and leave open significant and serious risks for innocent citizens.

The fact is that many of the agencies charged with keeping us and our friends overseas safe have been incompetent at identifying and reacting to threats staring them in the face. The solution to that is not to give them more power. In fact, if you flood them with more information from mass collection, there is a very real risk that there is too much noise and they are more likely to miss something.

They are poorly funded, poorly equipped and hamstrung by the lack of legislative support

MikeB4

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#1199141 17-Dec-2014 13:59

heylinb4nz:
KiwiNZ: Mass Surveillance for no reason is wrong and no democratic Government should participate in same. However things are not normal, we are in the middle of a global war which New Zealand is not immune.
There is no battle lines and the enemy does not wear uniforms. The technology available to them allows them to plan control and direct their campaign with speed. They do not follow any perceived rules of war.
Early detection of any attack is vital to allow the Government and our security forces to react and defend our people against any action by terror groups or individuals.

However surveillance is not enough, it is pointless detecting attacks if we do not have the resources to react and defeat any attack, therefore along with increased surveillance powers there needs to be an increase in our defence assets and abilities.

If folks believe we are somehow immune they are deluded, If folks believe we are prepared they are deluded, if folks believe we have the resources now to deal with it they are deluded.

Stop fear mongering, people are more likely to be killed on our roads, or king hit in town going about their business, wasted money and wasted legislation that does nothing except give government more powers to abuse.

You want defence assets on the ground ? then why not condone military curfew and armed presence by your government protectors on the streets of NZ until we have got rid of all the terrorists.

Good grief ..... just good grief.

ajobbins

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#1199143 17-Dec-2014 14:01

KiwiNZ: They are poorly funded, poorly equipped and hamstrung by the lack of legislative support

They have PLENTY of legislative support, they just aren't using it right.

If funding and equipment are an issue, then address that, don't sell the rest of the country down the river by legislating their rights away to make up for other failings.

It's a bit like saying the police don't have enough funding to keep us safe after dark, therefore the solution is a countrywide imposed curfew and no one is allowed outside after dark.

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MikeB4

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#1199148 17-Dec-2014 14:03

ajobbins:
KiwiNZ: They are poorly funded, poorly equipped and hamstrung by the lack of legislative support

They have PLENTY of legislative support, they just aren't using it right.

If funding and equipment are an issue, then address that, don't sell the rest of the country down the river by legislating their rights away to make up for other failings.

It's a bit like saying the police don't have enough funding to keep us safe after dark, therefore the solution is a countrywide imposed curfew and no one is allowed outside after dark.

You do realise that we had far more reaching and restricting laws etc during the second world war that were quickly repealed when the need past.

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