Not a scam - But the Nz Govt should be ashamed.

Forums › Off topic › Not a scam - But the Nz Govt should be ashamed.

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#939208 22-Nov-2013 18:24

allan:
loceff13: exactly this, they likely also agreed in the iGovt terms to email contact(even from marketers on their behalf) about new products/offers(however this is planned to be more a direct replacement of iGovt from my understanding).

Yes it is a direct replacement

It is a different service and it has a commercial purpose. iGovt and RealMe even have separate terms and conditions (see right hand panel).

nunz

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#939276 22-Nov-2013 20:36

Zeon: I hardly think this breaks the laws around spam as it isn't commercial - its a communication from the government....

It's probably not a good look with inviting links etc. but you are taking this complaint way overboard.....

minor point first then major point.
Point A

1 - It is commercial - TSB, Kiwibank, Insurance etc makes it commercial.
2 - It doesn't have to be commercial to be spam. Spam act states.

Section 6. A

Meaning of commercial electronic message

For the purposes of this Act, commercial electronic message—
- (a) means an electronic message that—
  - (i) markets or promotes—
    - (A) goods; or
    - (B) services; or
    - (C) land; or
    - (D) an interest in land; or
    - (E) a business or investment opportunity; or

it could be excluded on the grounds of section 6B which states the email can be excluded as it ...

provides the recipient with information about goods or services offered or supplied by—

(A) a government body; or

(B) a court or tribunal; or

however this included information aobut goods nad services provided by TSB, Kiwibank, Post office, insurance etc - which makes it commerical again.

Point B

BUT PLEASE NOTE ---

the majority of my objection is not around the spam act, that was a minority point, it is around the issues of security and privacy that this email blew through.It is about not teaching people to follow third party links of dubious quality. it is not about unfettered sharing of details which is only legal if legislated explicitly between govt depts nad it is about giving our details to a third party, over seas, marketing company with a flawed history of security - including major breaches of private third party information.

If real.govt.nz wants to contact people and let them know, that's fine. get the relvant govt dept that I do have contact with to tell me. If they want to send direct, that is legal. dont use american marketing companies and dont promote comemrcial interests. TSB is blatantly promoted in this email, over and above even Kiwi bank which was / is a govt supported bank.

and again - do the damn thing right - not half baked redirects, third pary HTTPS certificates etc. for crying out loud, what type ofIAAS cant even identify itself?

Kyanar

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#939372 23-Nov-2013 07:04

nunz:
Zeon: I hardly think this breaks the laws around spam as it isn't commercial - its a communication from the government....

It's probably not a good look with inviting links etc. but you are taking this complaint way overboard.....

minor point first then major point.
Point A

1 - It is commercial - TSB, Kiwibank, Insurance etc makes it commercial.
2 - It doesn't have to be commercial to be spam. Spam act states.

Section 6. A
Meaning of commercial electronic message

For the purposes of this Act, commercial electronic message—

(a) means an electronic message that—

(i) markets or promotes—

(A) goods; or

(B) services; or

(C) land; or

(D) an interest in land; or

(E) a business or investment opportunity; or

it could be excluded on the grounds of section 6B which states the email can be excluded as it ...

provides the recipient with information about goods or services offered or supplied by—

(A) a government body; or

(B) a court or tribunal; or

however this included information aobut goods nad services provided by TSB, Kiwibank, Post office, insurance etc - which makes it commerical again.

Point B

BUT PLEASE NOTE ---

the majority of my objection is not around the spam act, that was a minority point, it is around the issues of security and privacy that this email blew through.It is about not teaching people to follow third party links of dubious quality. it is not about unfettered sharing of details which is only legal if legislated explicitly between govt depts nad it is about giving our details to a third party, over seas, marketing company with a flawed history of security - including major breaches of private third party information.

If real.govt.nz wants to contact people and let them know, that's fine. get the relvant govt dept that I do have contact with to tell me. If they want to send direct, that is legal. dont use american marketing companies and dont promote comemrcial interests. TSB is blatantly promoted in this email, over and above even Kiwi bank which was / is a govt supported bank.

and again - do the damn thing right - not half baked redirects, third pary HTTPS certificates etc. for crying out loud, what type ofIAAS cant even identify itself?

Good lord you're taking this overboard. For a start, DIA does not charge anything for third parties to participate in the RealMe service. Second, the New Zealand Government does not even have a trusted root CA certificate in Windows (in fact, almost no governments do) - and frankly I'd prefer they don't, since if they did then it would be oh so ridiculously easy to MitM NZers personal communications (for children, or terrorists, or something) - so they have to purchase one from a third party, such as Verisign. Third, it's not a commercial email - it's an email telling you that iGovt is now Realme, and you can use it for stuff. OH NO THE WORLD IS ENDING.

MikeB4

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#939375 23-Nov-2013 07:20

It must be really hard to delete email.

MauriceWinn

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#939406 23-Nov-2013 09:52

KiwiNZ: It must be really hard to delete email.

It is. That's why there is an anti-spam law.

But the point made was that learning how to navigate around Cyberspace without being looted or otherwise endangered is a new experience for hordes of people who have never used a sextant and don't know a verisign from a dhcp dns upscalar. The government is pedantic about their swarms of abstruse laws when throwing the book at regular humans, then goes ahead and breaks them with indifference themselves, such as the armed air raid on Kim Dotcom's family, terrorizing his children and wife, and subsequent criminal acts, and prior criminal acts which are going to result in taxpayers having to pay $millions in damages to Kim Dotcom's family. Spamming people is illegal.

Learning what's phishing and what's not is hard work for regular humans. The writer was sensibly pointing out the problems with the government's spam phishing attack and what it teaches people.

Maurice Winn

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#939408 23-Nov-2013 09:55

Kyanar: For a start, DIA does not charge anything for third parties to participate in the RealMe service.

No. You are completely incorrect there. From the RealMe website:

How much does it cost? This will depend on the type of business and the frequency of usage of RealMe. Please contact our RealMe business team on 0800 803 215 so that we can discuss your specific requirements.

It's a single-fee service, so you only pay for those customers who use it.

OP is right about that one.

nunz

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#939491 23-Nov-2013 14:02

KiwiNZ: It must be really hard to delete email.

If you enjoy your Govt sending your details to overseas third party marketing agencies to send you dodgy redirected email, a company with a bad rep for losing emails to spammers and scammers, then be my guest - put your head in the sand and let this ride.

Me, I'm personally opposed to my govt selling my details off to third party's and i hate spam and I hate it when the Govt encourages people to do dumb financial things on the web.

This isn't about spam, this is about privacy and web safety and a half assed IAAS system that will let one breach screw thousands of Kiwis when they get broken into. if they cant do the basics well why would I trust them to do the difficult things well?

Shane

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MikeB4

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#939524 23-Nov-2013 16:57

nunz:
KiwiNZ: It must be really hard to delete email.

If you enjoy your Govt sending your details to overseas third party marketing agencies to send you dodgy redirected email, a company with a bad rep for losing emails to spammers and scammers, then be my guest - put your head in the sand and let this ride.

Me, I'm personally opposed to my govt selling my details off to third party's and i hate spam and I hate it when the Govt encourages people to do dumb financial things on the web.

This isn't about spam, this is about privacy and web safety and a half assed IAAS system that will let one breach screw thousands of Kiwis when they get broken into. if they cant do the basics well why would I trust them to do the difficult things well?

Shane

I have more important things to worry about

nunz

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#939543 23-Nov-2013 17:07

KiwiNZ:
nunz:
KiwiNZ: It must be really hard to delete email.

If you enjoy your Govt sending your details to overseas third party marketing agencies to send you dodgy redirected email, a company with a bad rep for losing emails to spammers and scammers, then be my guest - put your head in the sand and let this ride.

Me, I'm personally opposed to my govt selling my details off to third party's and i hate spam and I hate it when the Govt encourages people to do dumb financial things on the web.

This isn't about spam, this is about privacy and web safety and a half assed IAAS system that will let one breach screw thousands of Kiwis when they get broken into. if they cant do the basics well why would I trust them to do the difficult things well?

Shane

I have more important things to worry about

Like taking time out to be sarcastic to those who do worry about these things ;)

MikeB4

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#939562 23-Nov-2013 17:27

nunz:
KiwiNZ:
nunz:
KiwiNZ: It must be really hard to delete email.

If you enjoy your Govt sending your details to overseas third party marketing agencies to send you dodgy redirected email, a company with a bad rep for losing emails to spammers and scammers, then be my guest - put your head in the sand and let this ride.

Me, I'm personally opposed to my govt selling my details off to third party's and i hate spam and I hate it when the Govt encourages people to do dumb financial things on the web.

This isn't about spam, this is about privacy and web safety and a half assed IAAS system that will let one breach screw thousands of Kiwis when they get broken into. if they cant do the basics well why would I trust them to do the difficult things well?

Shane

I have more important things to worry about

Like taking time out to be sarcastic to those who do worry about these things ;)

No, I was simply stating my position.

I am more concerned about the destruction of the Denniston plateau. Off shore Oil drilling, asset sales than emails.

Ford

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#939769 24-Nov-2013 09:02

Hello
I am reading with interest the post about RealMe.
When I set up a company via the Companies Office I had to use a RealMe login
I emailed the companies office a few months back (before they started using RealMe) because there was a section that asked me for my date of birth on a page that was unencypted. I wonder if our government doesn't introduce any internet security standards because they would be breaking all the rules.

Having one login to access all your private information is also in my opinion - f-cking stupid!
Maybe the RealMe has come from the GCSB inititive and now its easier to find you because you have one login to all your personal information and the government now has access to all your information as well. (RealMe is a govt domain).

There are still a lot of people that think bank emails are legit and find themselves clicking links and logging into dodgy bank websites. What happens if they do that for fake RealMe websites?

My rule and it still stands today - don't use the same username/email and password for everything.
And don't put personal details on the internet.
The companys including our Government use this technology because they know most people are uneducated and will use it regardless because they don't know any better, especially if they make it easy for people to use it.

Lets educate others before it is too late.
In the meantime, I'll email netsafe and ask their opinion.

Ford

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#940158 25-Nov-2013 10:36

nunz: I received an email from realme.govt.nz called Get Ready to use RealMe for banking.

.....

I've contact DIA and let them know of my concern in no uncertain terms. Unfortunately this type of gross negligence is becoming more and more common in govt Departments. It is not the first time I've had a Govt Department up about this type of breach of privacy and security. i'll let you know what they say.

They probably think they are running it more like a commercial concern.....so your privacy gets lip-service only.

They may well be hosting the data on cloud services overseas....so the NSA can spy on it legally (in the US anyway).

It looks to me like a "citizen card" of the sort that civil rights activists are always alarmed about because the government can then track you more easily. (Though all they probably need to do is friend you on facebook.)

_____________________________________________________________________

I've been on Geekzone over 16 years..... Time flies....

nunz

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#940628 25-Nov-2013 20:25

KiwiNZ:
nunz:
KiwiNZ:
nunz:
KiwiNZ: It must be really hard to delete email.

If you enjoy your Govt sending your details to overseas third party marketing agencies to send you dodgy redirected email, a company with a bad rep for losing emails to spammers and scammers, then be my guest - put your head in the sand and let this ride.

Me, I'm personally opposed to my govt selling my details off to third party's and i hate spam and I hate it when the Govt encourages people to do dumb financial things on the web.

This isn't about spam, this is about privacy and web safety and a half assed IAAS system that will let one breach screw thousands of Kiwis when they get broken into. if they cant do the basics well why would I trust them to do the difficult things well?

Shane

I have more important things to worry about

Like taking time out to be sarcastic to those who do worry about these things ;)

No, I was simply stating my position.

I am more concerned about the destruction of the Denniston plateau. Off shore Oil drilling, asset sales than emails.

really? ""KiwiNZ: It must be really hard to delete email."" wasnt sarcasm but a statement of your opinion? I'ld hate to be around when you to resort to sarcasm.

nunz

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#940633 25-Nov-2013 20:27

Linuxluver:
nunz: I received an email from realme.govt.nz called Get Ready to use RealMe for banking.

.....

I've contact DIA and let them know of my concern in no uncertain terms. Unfortunately this type of gross negligence is becoming more and more common in govt Departments. It is not the first time I've had a Govt Department up about this type of breach of privacy and security. i'll let you know what they say.

They probably think they are running it more like a commercial concern.....so your privacy gets lip-service only.

They may well be hosting the data on cloud services overseas....so the NSA can spy on it legally (in the US anyway).

It looks to me like a "citizen card" of the sort that civil rights activists are always alarmed about because the government can then track you more easily. (Though all they probably need to do is friend you on facebook.)

interestingly - if a govt dept runs a commercial concern - ie realme or other SOE, does that exempt them from the spam law or do they then forfeit the right to claim its a govt email and get away with spam?

Kyanar

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#940846 26-Nov-2013 09:40

nunz:
Linuxluver:
nunz: I received an email from realme.govt.nz called Get Ready to use RealMe for banking.

.....

I've contact DIA and let them know of my concern in no uncertain terms. Unfortunately this type of gross negligence is becoming more and more common in govt Departments. It is not the first time I've had a Govt Department up about this type of breach of privacy and security. i'll let you know what they say.

They probably think they are running it more like a commercial concern.....so your privacy gets lip-service only.

They may well be hosting the data on butt services overseas....so the NSA can spy on it legally (in the US anyway).

It looks to me like a "citizen card" of the sort that civil rights activists are always alarmed about because the government can then track you more easily. (Though all they probably need to do is friend you on facebook.)

interestingly - if a govt dept runs a commercial concern - ie realme or other SOE, does that exempt them from the spam law or do they then forfeit the right to claim its a govt email and get away with spam?

Realme isn't a commercial concern. Any charge they do put onto third parties who hook in they probably deem "cost recovery". To answer your other half of the question though, SOEs and Crown Entities are bound by the same law as private companies - for all intents and purposes they are not government. (Well, Crown Entities are a bit wishy-washy there, but SOEs)

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