English speaking nurse fails English tests

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#3418600 24-Sep-2025 21:40

My wife works in a hospital and English isn’t her first language. Her English is OK, but I’d fully expect her to not pass a test for nursing.

Having said that however, she has had feedback from her workmates that they appreciate her notes more than what some of the other kiwi staff are putting down.

Does sound like the sort of policy that Winny would be very proud of.

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#3418606 24-Sep-2025 22:11

scuwp: Not getting feedback on where you went wrong is just dumb, but is sadly repeated elsewhere - the high school CAA exams are another example. You get told if you achieved or not, but don't get any constructive feedback to help you understand the areas you need to focus on to improve.

Imo that's the thing with the government choosing an external party like IELTS to provide the exams. IELTS has it's own standards and procedures to maintain and isn't going to change some things.

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#3418609 24-Sep-2025 22:49

scuwp:

I get the distinct impression the 'nurses council' are very protectionist. I am all for minimum standards but can't help but wonder if they have the settings wrong, and are simply too engrained (pig headed) to see sense. Sometimes these organisations (and I include Unions here) can actually be a barrier to progress.

The Nurses council, as well as the similarly structured teaching and medical councils, are really quite anachronistic in origin, setup and funding. In many ways they should be part of the Ministry of Health or the Ministry of Education. It's been convenient for the government to leave them as "independent" organisations as then they haven't had to fund them and made doctors, nurses and teachers fund them out of their own pockets. It's similar to ambulances.

The nurses council has statutory duties while not being funded by the government and are responsible for minimum standards. This leads to them being conservative rather than protectionist as they have no incentive to behave any other way. If they register an incompetent nurse there's a mass of media coverage, the Minister of Health says "it's the nurses councils fault not mine" and they get beaten up in public.

If we want different policy settings the structure needs to change. The government should take responsibility then they can align the requirements for nurses with their policy settings. They can also take responsibility if something goes wrong.

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#3418842 25-Sep-2025 20:43

I have some experience with this having been previously in a relationship with an immigrant.

That is exactly how IELTS works.

They know what people are needing it for and by some magic the pass mark just isn't quite there so rinse and repeat with a new fee.

After a couple of times and hearing of others experiences we realised what was going on. She then redid the English test with another of the options for teacher's registration and passed first time.

Google IELTS and see others have written about them too.

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#3418843 25-Sep-2025 20:58

alasta:

I know plenty of well educated native English speakers who struggle to write a sentence without spelling errors, improper use of apostrophes, and mixing up homonyms.

Witness GZ.

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#3418846 25-Sep-2025 21:10

wellygary:

Nope, the simple reason many people don't apply to be doctors is that we ration those who can enrol for medical training, its an expensive course and the government (who pays 75%) has set a cap of ~600 1st year places ..

Because the number of people applying is so large, they create a strict rationing criteria of grades and diversity....

If you make the rules too hard. people will simply go and do something else....its a whole lot easier to become an engineer or software developer than a doctor....

The rationing is ridiculous, and short-sighted. However, my wife was dux at a very good private school, finished top in the country in 2 sciences, 2 math topics, excelled at everything and still failed to make the cut for Auckland Med School the first time.

There were a number of doctors allowed in with lower grades so that there was representation of different cultures.

In the first 2 years they lost 5 students to suicide likely due to the stress, they had significant numbes drop out year one and even more drop out year 2 and quite a number failed exams at the end of year and either re-sat over summer or quit. I can't recall the exact numbers of students allowed in with lower grades but I know that only 15% of them made it to Year 3.

My wife found it incredibly tough going and she talked about dropping out a couple of times seriously. The stress and workload of learning in those first 2 years were absolutely brutal.

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#3418909 26-Sep-2025 01:49

eracode:

alasta:

I know plenty of well educated native English speakers who struggle to write a sentence without spelling errors, improper use of apostrophes, and mixing up homonyms.

Witness GZ.

Capital letters and full stops are too much for some users.

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#3418918 26-Sep-2025 08:40

networkn:

The rationing is ridiculous, and short-sighted. However, my wife was dux at a very good private school, finished top in the country in 2 sciences, 2 math topics, excelled at everything and still failed to make the cut for Auckland Med School the first time.

There were a number of doctors allowed in with lower grades so that there was representation of different cultures.

In the first 2 years they lost 5 students to suicide likely due to the stress, they had significant numbes drop out year one and even more drop out year 2 and quite a number failed exams at the end of year and either re-sat over summer or quit. I can't recall the exact numbers of students allowed in with lower grades but I know that only 15% of them made it to Year 3.

My wife found it incredibly tough going and she talked about dropping out a couple of times seriously. The stress and workload of learning in those first 2 years were absolutely brutal.

I am happy it is super difficult to get into medical school. I'm just as happy it is super difficult to pass medical school. We want highly competent people making profoundly consequential decisions about our bodies, not the merely competent, because the costs of mistakes are so high.

With respect to diversity, our medical system should be representative of who we are as a society, for many reasons. For example, we absolutely need doctors from working class neighbourhoods of bogan cities, because they will be able to relate to patients of their background in a way somebody from a wealthy family who attended a private school is unlikely to be able to. Even if only 15% of these "bogan background" doctors make it through medical school, they are worth their weight in gold.

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#3418923 26-Sep-2025 09:15

Metamorphic:

networkn:

The rationing is ridiculous, and short-sighted. However, my wife was dux at a very good private school, finished top in the country in 2 sciences, 2 math topics, excelled at everything and still failed to make the cut for Auckland Med School the first time.

There were a number of doctors allowed in with lower grades so that there was representation of different cultures.

In the first 2 years they lost 5 students to suicide likely due to the stress, they had significant numbes drop out year one and even more drop out year 2 and quite a number failed exams at the end of year and either re-sat over summer or quit. I can't recall the exact numbers of students allowed in with lower grades but I know that only 15% of them made it to Year 3.

My wife found it incredibly tough going and she talked about dropping out a couple of times seriously. The stress and workload of learning in those first 2 years were absolutely brutal.

I am happy it is super difficult to get into medical school. I'm just as happy it is super difficult to pass medical school. We want highly competent people making profoundly consequential decisions about our bodies, not the merely competent, because the costs of mistakes are so high.

With respect to diversity, our medical system should be representative of who we are as a society, for many reasons. For example, we absolutely need doctors from working class neighbourhoods of bogan cities, because they will be able to relate to patients of their background in a way somebody from a wealthy family who attended a private school is unlikely to be able to. Even if only 15% of these "bogan background" doctors make it through medical school, they are worth their weight in gold.

It is not hard to get into med school if you meet one of the diversity quota groups - Maori, PI and Rural, but otherwise you need academically exceptional out of school. What we end up with is an unrepresentative cohort of the diversity quota groups plus the academic elite. Then as mentioned, quite a few drop out so positions are wasted.

There's no requirement for successful Maori, PI and rural candidates to return to work with those communities after they graduate. They can and often do disappear to Australia with their subsidised degrees just like the others. All medical graduates should be bonded over a portion of their course fees.

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#3418928 26-Sep-2025 09:49

Metamorphic: I am happy it is super difficult to get into medical school. I'm just as happy it is super difficult to pass medical school. We want highly competent people making profoundly consequential decisions about our bodies, not the merely competent, because the costs of mistakes are so high.

That is not the issue here. The issue is the government has essentially capped the annual intake at an absolute number - 600. It's far too low for a population our size.

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#3418929 26-Sep-2025 09:51

Metamorphic:

I am happy it is super difficult to get into medical school. I'm just as happy it is super difficult to pass medical school. We want highly competent people making profoundly consequential decisions about our bodies, not the merely competent, because the costs of mistakes are so high.

With respect to diversity, our medical system should be representative of who we are as a society, for many reasons. For example, we absolutely need doctors from working class neighbourhoods of bogan cities, because they will be able to relate to patients of their background in a way somebody from a wealthy family who attended a private school is unlikely to be able to. Even if only 15% of these "bogan background" doctors make it through medical school, they are worth their weight in gold.

It's all well and good to want high standards, I agree, but when we aren't educating to a high standard at earlier stages of schooling, less and less people can make the cut, hack the pace and maintain the standards required. This leads to shortages, which then need to be filled overseas.

We compete with every other country experiencing the same thing, and our medical system isn't particularly enticing for new comers.

There is a far less of a problem at the hospitals than in primary care, which if handled better would take a lot of pressure off the hospitals. Very few people in NZ understand just exactly how badly broken General Practice is, and how essential General Practice/Primary care is, to the health of our nation. Ongoing demands for primary care to handle more and more and little to no meaningful increase for capitation for the longest time. Doctors are leaving General Practice before their careers are over, such is the strain of providing care within the time allocated.

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#3418930 26-Sep-2025 09:58

networkn: In the first 2 years they lost 5 students to suicide likely due to the stress, they had significant numbes drop out year one and even more drop out year 2 and quite a number failed exams at the end of year and either re-sat over summer or quit.

Imo there is something deeply wrong with that. Any other vocation and that number of deaths is an industry crisis and must be addressed.

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#3418935 26-Sep-2025 10:23

My daughter went to a good state secondary school and then went to Dunedin in the hope of becoming a doctor. She found the Health Science first year very tough. The students that had done Cambridge were way ahead of her. If you have a child wanting a medical career, I suggest that you look at a school that offers Cambridge. Also look at schools that offer UMAT/UCAT instruction and test.

After the first year she decided that physiotherapy was where she wanted to go, was accepted, and is now very happy working as a hospital physiotherapist.

There were suicides, but they didn't talk about them. It is a taboo subject.

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#3418956 26-Sep-2025 10:49

johno1234:It is not hard to get into med school if you meet one of the diversity quota groups - Maori, PI and Rural, but otherwise you need academically exceptional out of school. What we end up with is an unrepresentative cohort of the diversity quota groups plus the academic elite. Then as mentioned, quite a few drop out so positions are wasted.

There's no requirement for successful Maori, PI and rural candidates to return to work with those communities after they graduate. They can and often do disappear to Australia with their subsidised degrees just like the others. All medical graduates should be bonded over a portion of their course fees.

rural just means you've schooled for 4 years outside of the 4 big cities.

anyone could do 4 years of primary school in not the 4 big cities then live in the 4 big cities forever and get in under "Rural". - it's a joke.

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#3418957 26-Sep-2025 10:51

gzt:
Metamorphic: I am happy it is super difficult to get into medical school. I'm just as happy it is super difficult to pass medical school. We want highly competent people making profoundly consequential decisions about our bodies, not the merely competent, because the costs of mistakes are so high.

That is not the issue here. The issue is the government has essentially capped the annual intake at an absolute number - 600. It's far too low for a population our size.

It was significantly lower (300ish) when my wife applied.

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