Tiwai Point and Rio Tinto

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9120 posts

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#789696 30-Mar-2013 18:40

Linuxluver:
TheMantis:

Unfortunately Transpower are well behind with grid upgrades as it is. Last year I took my apprentices on a field trip to Manapouri and the Waitaki hydro schemes, I'd never been to Manapouri before and was astounded with the engineering involved. What we have built in the past is incredible, unfortunately the RMA and NIMBY's make the development of significant infrastructure far more expensive and drawn out than ever before.

Rio Tinto really do have the country by the balls here. This should never have been allowed to happen.

The other thing to bear in mind is that everywhere market "reforms" have been introduced into the electricity industry the countries concerned soon found they were having power shortages....which, after all, are FAR more profitable than building more power plants.

Running electricity as a market has been demonstrated fairly conclusively to be a scam.

It's time to go back to the way we used to do electricity. If you need it, you build it. If you need more, you build more. Very simple. It worked.

Instead we have: price rationing and very little new power generation capacity....while generators make big fat profits for NOT producing more power.

Max Bradford and National were warned about this 20 years ago when they brought it in. They didn't listen....and this is just one of the many reasons I never vote for that party. They haven't got a clue. Not then and not now.

As I said before Labor in 9 years did nothing about it either..

Regards,

Old3eyes

TheUngeek

924 posts

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#789802 31-Mar-2013 00:37

Blame the green hippies.
They are the ones that won't allow new hydro or effective windfarms or any form of realistic power gereration

Skolink

1081 posts

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#789825 31-Mar-2013 08:26

TheUngeek: Blame the green hippies.
They are the ones that won't allow new hydro or effective windfarms or any form of realistic power gereration

Nonsense. There are heaps of consents issued now which the power companies are choosing not to build, Waitaki North Bank Tunnel for example. I'll list some wind farms too if you like.

TheUngeek

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#789829 31-Mar-2013 08:33

Please do because all I hear no no no when a new hydro development is mooted, eg Marlborough, Otago and westcoast. The wind farm in Wellington is downsized as well.

Skolink

1081 posts

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#789831 31-Mar-2013 08:44

TheUngeek: Please do because all I hear no no no when a new hydro development is mooted, eg Marlborough, Otago and westcoast. The wind farm in Wellington is downsized as well.

See here

John2010

532 posts

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#789889 31-Mar-2013 12:11

Linuxluver:
...The other thing to bear in mind is that everywhere market "reforms" have been introduced into the electricity industry the countries concerned soon found they were having power shortages....which, after all, are FAR more profitable than building more power plants...

I have visited a number of European and Scandinavian countries, and the USA and Australia on matters investigating markets for electricity and have to say that your comment is just plain foolish and demonstrates no inkling of understanding of how electricity markets have worked at all.

Your comment is straight from the general anti market, anti global business, anti anything to do with increasing the world's prosperity ideology booklet.

John2010

532 posts

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#789890 31-Mar-2013 12:16

TheMantis:...I'd never been to Manapouri before and was astounded with the engineering involved. What we have built in the past is incredible...

I have never been in Manapouri but have been in around 6 or 7 underground power stations in other countries. As I recall it most (maybe all, can't really remember) of those had "high tide" marks in them due to flooding at some time or another

. As far as I know, but I wouldn't be privy to it anyway, Manapouri has never had a flooding event.

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TheUngeek

924 posts

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#789901 31-Mar-2013 12:59

Skolink:
TheUngeek: Please do because all I hear no no no when a new hydro development is mooted, eg Marlborough, Otago and westcoast. The wind farm in Wellington is downsized as well.

See here

That really doesn't help your point at all

Skolink

1081 posts

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#789907 31-Mar-2013 13:54

TheUngeek:
Skolink:
TheUngeek: Please do because all I hear no no no when a new hydro development is mooted, eg Marlborough, Otago and westcoast. The wind farm in Wellington is downsized as well.

See here

That really doesn't help your point at all

You didn't see that there are several wind farms with resource consent which are yet to be built?

TheUngeek

924 posts

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#789920 31-Mar-2013 14:37

Yeah but doesn't mention anything about hydro or the windfarms downsized etc
If the greens had thier way, we'd be back in the dark ages

JimmyH

2886 posts

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#789954 31-Mar-2013 16:12

Linuxluver:

The other thing to bear in mind is that everywhere market "reforms" have been introduced into the electricity industry the countries concerned soon found they were having power shortages....which, after all, are FAR more profitable than building more power plants.

I'm not sure that's true. Many countries have power companies and a functioning market, and as far as I can tell, they seem to work pretty well. The only one I am aware of that is a total disaster is India, which is pretty much down to the way the government owns and controls the system - legally fixed prices for farmers that doesn't even cover the cost of the fuel to generate etc. China also has shortages, but that seems pretty much due to massive demand growth rather than anything to do with company ownership.

Running electricity as a market has been demonstrated fairly conclusively to be a scam.

Really? Any evidence for that "conclusive demonstration"?

It's time to go back to the way we used to do electricity. If you need it, you build it. If you need more, you build more. Very simple. It worked.

No, actually it didn't. I'm old enough to remember when the old NZED owned and ran the system. Shortages and brownouts. In fact, remember having a bath by Kerosene lamp on a number of occasions because chronic shortages means they had rolling blackouts in the suburbs. One of the reasons Muldoon romped in was a promise to have the Ministry of Works fast-track the Clyde Dam to fix the blackouts.

Instead we have: price rationing and very little new power generation capacity....while generators make big fat profits for NOT producing more power.

Lets see.... a couple of big windfarms, Contact's two new gas at Otahuhu, the large new plant at Huntly, the second Manapouri tailrace, Meridian's massive project on the Waitaki (which the greens sank), Trustpower's Dobson dam (which the greens sank)..... nope no evidence that anyone is trying to invest in new capacity under the current system.

Also, price is how markets allocate resource. It doesn't just ration demand, it tells investors when it makes sense to build new plant (hint: when marginal price > marginal cost). Given that power isn't infinite, if you don't want price to balance things, how do you propose to balance things - blackouts?

Max Bradford and National were warned about this 20 years ago when they brought it in. They didn't listen....and this is just one of the many reasons I never vote for that party. They haven't got a clue. Not then and not now.

It's getting more than a bit thin to blame Max after all this time. There have been a number of governments of various political persuasions over the decades since Max was a Minister.

Skolink

1081 posts

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#790071 31-Mar-2013 22:48

TheUngeek: Yeah but doesn't mention anything about hydro or the windfarms downsized etc
If the greens had thier way, we'd be back in the dark ages

Burning coal is the dark ages.

old3eyes

9120 posts

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#790128 1-Apr-2013 09:30

Skolink:
TheUngeek: Yeah but doesn't mention anything about hydro or the windfarms downsized etc
If the greens had thier way, we'd be back in the dark ages

Burning coal is the dark ages.

If you need heat and power in the winter then coal is a good option..

Regards,

Old3eyes

JimmyH

2886 posts

Uber Geek

#790192 1-Apr-2013 13:34

Skolink:
TheUngeek: Yeah but doesn't mention anything about hydro or the windfarms downsized etc
If the greens had thier way, we'd be back in the dark ages

Burning coal is the dark ages.

I think you'll find they generally burned wood (heat) and tallow candles (light) in the dark ages, not coal

Anyhow, form many applications, coal is cost-competitive with high energy density. Good for heating, and you pretty much can't make steel with out it.

Linuxluver

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#790702 2-Apr-2013 14:11

Regs: cheaper power perhaps, but..... southland loses $500M from their economy (1/10th of their GDP), NZ loses $1B in exports, 3200 people lose their jobs (a bunch more too when all the other shops, pubs and restaurants affected close down), property prices plummet in southland, and social welfare costs increase by a few hundred million.

how much will you save off your monthly power bill after all this carnage? (and will you just end up paying it elsewhere as the govt increases taxes to pay for the increased social welfare and to cover the loss of tax income from the domestic and export earnings)

All good points...and no one really knows the answers.

What we DO know is this government came into office promising lower power prices...and it now VERY obvious they have no intention of keeping that promise...which is why power is now more expensive than ever.

I am now paying 28c-30c / unit...which is 30% more than 2 years ago....and 50% more than before National took office.

They are liars and thieves.

UPDATE: I wouldn't feel so bad if the profits were going back into the general coffers as we are all shareholders in state assets....but they want to direct these profits to privileged shareholders who get better returns because EVERYONE ELSE is paying higher prices for power.

That's the sort of garbage I'm used to from National...which is why I consider them a loony fringe party with policies that are proven failures....that no sane person ever votes for.

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