Americas Cup Funding.

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#1072851 23-Jun-2014 18:57

KiwiNZ: I have no issue with Government funding to assist amateur sport, I have a big issue with Government funding of professional sport.

I have issues with both, and I don't think the government should fund either of them.

Nearly $40 million for a yacht race is ridiculous. They should just set up an 0900 number so that people who are keen on the sport can make a donation, rather than plundering the poor old taxpayer for someone's entertainment jollies yet again.

blakamin

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#1072889 23-Jun-2014 19:59

While I don't think the govt should fund it, I don't think it's a rich mans sport either. Americas Cup might be, but standard racing...
Look at the amount of kids that sail every weekend (sea scouts still exist). Go out any weekend anywhere there's water and people are sailing. A rich person might own the boat (or not, I once knew a guy who worked at a meatworks that had a 30 footer he'd race every weekend), but the crew don't own the boat and often race for the experience.
I crewed in my 20's when I thought I'd have no interest at all. I was dragged into it by my brother as they were short a crew member. I couldn't get enough!!! The tactics, logic and intelligence required to do it right is amazing and gives you a super buzz. After I moved away and couldn't crew any more, I took up windsurfing.
Sailing is awesome... Don't knock it until you try it.

BTW, I'd rather watch yacht racing than rugby any day!

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#1072893 23-Jun-2014 20:07

itxtme:
Net benefit analysis for these events is dubious at best also

Let me guess you dont vaccinate your children, as the data is dubious?

I cant believe how many times we must go over this. John Key does not have a hard on for yacht racing. Your opinions on yacht racing dont matter. The amount of people that watch it, doesnt matter.

This event with a TNZ boat makes the government money (that means profit). If the government doesnt spend this, they will have less money. This isnt a debate, this isnt an assumption, this isnt wishful thinking- this is FACT. All of your arguments are political, or emotional. The government decision is financial!

Now if you want to keep arguing that it shouldnt, please argue the financial impact of the AC!

Given you are absolutely sure that the event makes money could you please share the evidence of this?

MikeB4

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#1072894 23-Jun-2014 20:11

blakamin: While I don't think the govt should fund it, I don't think it's a rich mans sport either. Americas Cup might be, but standard racing...
Look at the amount of kids that sail every weekend (sea scouts still exist). Go out any weekend anywhere there's water and people are sailing. A rich person might own the boat (or not, I once knew a guy who worked at a meatworks that had a 30 footer he'd race every weekend), but the crew don't own the boat and often race for the experience.
I crewed in my 20's when I thought I'd have no interest at all. I was dragged into it by my brother as they were short a crew member. I couldn't get enough!!! The tactics, logic and intelligence required to do it right is amazing and gives you a super buzz. After I moved away and couldn't crew any more, I took up windsurfing.
Sailing is awesome... Don't knock it until you try it.

BTW, I'd rather watch yacht racing than rugby any day!

The kids racing their small craft in the weekend meets the amateur sport scenario an I have no issues with Government helping with that.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

oxnsox

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#1072910 23-Jun-2014 20:38

Gilco2: I used to enjoy the America's Cup but over the years its deteriorated to who has the most money. As a small country we just cant compete against the likes of Oracle as we just dont have the finances to fund the amount of technology needed these days as shown by Oracle. So I dont support government funding of it anymore.

If it went back to basics of identical boats and technology and it is a race between genuine ability of the teams and not the technology then yes.
But not as it stands now

The AC has always been about money.
It is unlikely to ever be about identical boats and technology, it is above all a design race.
And yes the rules may appear skewed, thats been happening for a long time too. And it will continue to happen, even if we were to win.

Why can't we compete against Oracle? We did it last time, and we've done it every time we've competed. Foiling last time was a Kiwi innovation, the rules had been written to try and preclude it. We lost because our boat was slower, it was clearly visible from day one. The weather just let Oracle learn how to foil better.

If any Team has any chance of winning The Cup away from Larry, it's TNZ.

Being part of the AC puts brand New Zealand in front of high net worth people that wouldn't otherwise give a fig for a Kiwi. Yes its hard to measure that value, but it is there.
The All Blacks do a similar job but in a more diverse (and wider) market.
I'm not saying we should or shouldn't be part of the AC, I'm simply saying there's a hell off a lot more to it than a yacht race. And others important to understand that.
And as Dalts has said, once we're out we won't be back.
It's a tough call.

scuwp

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#1072911 23-Jun-2014 20:42

Handle9:
itxtme:
Net benefit analysis for these events is dubious at best also

Let me guess you dont vaccinate your children, as the data is dubious?

I cant believe how many times we must go over this. John Key does not have a hard on for yacht racing. Your opinions on yacht racing dont matter. The amount of people that watch it, doesnt matter.

This event with a TNZ boat makes the government money (that means profit). If the government doesnt spend this, they will have less money. This isnt a debate, this isnt an assumption, this isnt wishful thinking- this is FACT. All of your arguments are political, or emotional. The government decision is financial!

Now if you want to keep arguing that it shouldnt, please argue the financial impact of the AC!

Given you are absolutely sure that the event makes money could you please share the evidence of this?

Beat me to it, was going to ask exactly that.

How can ROI ever be calculated for these events with any degree of accuracy? An old wise and forthright teacher of mine had a term for this, it was called a 'SWAG" (Scientific Wild A** Guess).

I would rather my tax $$$ go towards hospitals, education etc than these flights of fancy. But thats just me.

Lazy is such an ugly word, I prefer to call it selective participation

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#1072932 23-Jun-2014 21:17

networkn:
ubergeeknz:
networkn:
heavenlywild: This says it all about why I think the next America's Cup is not 'sport':

Oracle: 2 boats
Everyone else: 1 boat

Why compete on an uneven playing field?

The main reason was explained on Radio Sport the other day. All the challengers race against each other throughout, but the defender doesn't race until the last series.

I think it's fair enough.

So the challengers have MORE races to complete, but have FEWER boats? That makes sense how?

I think you are looking at it wrong. How is it fair that the defender has no-one to race, no way to test themselves or benchmark performances?

I think you're looking at it wrong - it's a challenger series, not a defender series. From the challenger perspective, what's the point of racing the defender in this particular series? Is it so if the defender wins it contributes to the challengers elimination? Is it so if the challenger wins it means absolutely nothing as the defender can't be eliminated?

networkn

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#1072946 23-Jun-2014 21:43

chevrolux: It's just ridiculous giving them funding.

The Barker's should put some of their fortune in to it! Surely the numbers they are talking are peanuts compared to what the Barker's can afford.

But on the other side, how can ANYONE compete with Oracle. Like... it's freken Oracle!!!

Do you think Ritchie McCaw should pay to put forward a challenge for the Rugby World Cup? Your logic that they are wealthy therefore they should pay to compete is ludicrous I am afraid.

networkn

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#1072947 23-Jun-2014 21:44

blakamin: While I don't think the govt should fund it, I don't think it's a rich mans sport either. Americas Cup might be, but standard racing...
Look at the amount of kids that sail every weekend (sea scouts still exist). Go out any weekend anywhere there's water and people are sailing. A rich person might own the boat (or not, I once knew a guy who worked at a meatworks that had a 30 footer he'd race every weekend), but the crew don't own the boat and often race for the experience.
I crewed in my 20's when I thought I'd have no interest at all. I was dragged into it by my brother as they were short a crew member. I couldn't get enough!!! The tactics, logic and intelligence required to do it right is amazing and gives you a super buzz. After I moved away and couldn't crew any more, I took up windsurfing.
Sailing is awesome... Don't knock it until you try it.

BTW, I'd rather watch yacht racing than rugby any day!

Given the discussion is about the Americas Cup I am not sure the relevance of the comments you have made.

networkn

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#1072949 23-Jun-2014 21:46

JimmyH:
KiwiNZ: I have no issue with Government funding to assist amateur sport, I have a big issue with Government funding of professional sport.

I have issues with both, and I don't think the government should fund either of them.

Nearly $40 million for a yacht race is ridiculous. They should just set up an 0900 number so that people who are keen on the sport can make a donation, rather than plundering the poor old taxpayer for someone's entertainment jollies yet again.

I don't disagree with this idea. Perhaps send a tweet to TeamNZ. Thing is though, most sponsors get something from their sponsorship, not sure what your average Kiwi would get back other than a week or two of watching. Maybe that's enough.

blakamin

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#1072950 23-Jun-2014 21:48

networkn:
blakamin: While I don't think the govt should fund it,

Given the discussion is about the Americas Cup I am not sure the relevance of the comments you have made.

Easier for you to read?

The rest of it was directed at other peoples comments...

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itxtme

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#1072966 23-Jun-2014 22:31

Handle9:
itxtme:
Net benefit analysis for these events is dubious at best also

Let me guess you dont vaccinate your children, as the data is dubious?

I cant believe how many times we must go over this. John Key does not have a hard on for yacht racing. Your opinions on yacht racing dont matter. The amount of people that watch it, doesnt matter.

This event with a TNZ boat makes the government money (that means profit). If the government doesnt spend this, they will have less money. This isnt a debate, this isnt an assumption, this isnt wishful thinking- this is FACT. All of your arguments are political, or emotional. The government decision is financial!

Now if you want to keep arguing that it shouldnt, please argue the financial impact of the AC!

Given you are absolutely sure that the event makes money could you please share the evidence of this?

Use the search button, find the last thread that has this information. Both an independent and internal reports. Same methods as used to check the financial impact of every other event NZ tax payers fund. But lets all ignore that right?

Its a political hot potato, thats clear just from the majority of people here at geekzone. Ask yourself why would they still fund it??? It is financially beneficial - that is all.

Handle9

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#1072981 23-Jun-2014 22:33

itxtme:
Handle9:
itxtme:
Net benefit analysis for these events is dubious at best also

Let me guess you dont vaccinate your children, as the data is dubious?

I cant believe how many times we must go over this. John Key does not have a hard on for yacht racing. Your opinions on yacht racing dont matter. The amount of people that watch it, doesnt matter.

This event with a TNZ boat makes the government money (that means profit). If the government doesnt spend this, they will have less money. This isnt a debate, this isnt an assumption, this isnt wishful thinking- this is FACT. All of your arguments are political, or emotional. The government decision is financial!

Now if you want to keep arguing that it shouldnt, please argue the financial impact of the AC!

Given you are absolutely sure that the event makes money could you please share the evidence of this?

Use the search button, find the last thread that has this information. Both an independent and internal reports. Same methods as used to check the financial impact of every other even NZ tax payers fund. But lets all ignore that right?

Its a political hot potato, thats clear just from the majority of people here at geekzone. Ask yourself why would they still fund it??? It is financially beneficial - that is all.

Is there really any need to be rude? You have made a heap of sweeping statements, it would be nice if you justified them.

JimmyH

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#1073008 23-Jun-2014 23:18

itxtme:

Use the search button, find the last thread that has this information. Both an independent and internal reports. Same methods as used to check the financial impact of every other event NZ tax payers fund. But lets all ignore that right?

Its a political hot potato, thats clear just from the majority of people here at geekzone. Ask yourself why would they still fund it??? It is financially beneficial - that is all.

It's a little unnecessary to take that tone with people in what has been a fairly civilised discussion.

You made some fairly absolute statements about it being a proven fact that the Government made a net profit on funding the event, and a couple of people asked you for some evidence in support of that. The aren't "ignoring" anything, to the contrary, they are asking for links to the independent and internal reports that you have cited to justify your assertion. Which, in my opinion, is a fair and reasonable question to ask.

mattwnz

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#1073010 23-Jun-2014 23:22

JimmyH:
You made some fairly absolute statements about it being a proven fact that the Government made a net profit on funding the event, and a couple of people asked you for some evidence in support of that. The aren't "ignoring" anything, to the contrary, they are asking for links to the independent and internal reports that you have cited to justify your assertion. Which, in my opinion, is a fair and reasonable question to ask.

I read in the weekend that after inflation, there wasn't really any profit from it. But I also read a few weeks ago that they had made quite a big profit. So not sure where these artciles are getting the figures from.

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