Leaving Neverland and the New Zealand media reaction

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Awrrr
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#2196103 11-Mar-2019 21:05

Batman:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to observe that people are quite happy to condemn Donald Trump, antivaxxers, climate change deniers, religion faithfuls, but not happy when other people condemn MJ. When is one allowed to pass judgement on social media and when should one not judge on social media?

I can't speak for 'people', only for myself. Speaking for myself, Donald Trump has repeatedly shown himself to be a highly unpleasant easily played authoritarian individual who poses a real threat to democratic freedoms who should be criticised, condemned and pilloried in every way possible to combat the very dangerous Fox propaganda machine of Murdoch and others who want to take over the world. I am happy to do my small part in this.

Antivaxxers are irresponsible superstitious imbeciles happy to threaten the health of their children and others for some idiotic freedom of choice 'principle'. They deserve to be burned at the stake.

Climate change deniers are simply wrong. They have every right to their opinion and I will take every opportunity to dispute it.

I fully respect the right of religious believers to believe in any god they want to, and I have stated that more than once. I have no tolerance for intolerance, and will attack it wherever it emerges.

I have no problem with condemning Michael Jackson, though condemning him for what he has done would be preferable to condemning him for what he has only been accused of doing. As I have previously said, he is probably guilty. It would be better to see some actual evidence before hanging him, though.

Howling mobs don't care about subtleties like proof of guilt or even lynching the right person. They just want blood. I am not defending Michael Jackson and I am certainly not defending paedophilia, though I don't expect any of the screaming masses to notice the difference. The only thing I have said about this, which I gladly repeat again here, is that it is really, really stupid to talk of banning his music because of what he is alleged to have done. I said this before. Bad people can also do good things. The things should be judged on their own merit, not on anything else. If you want to ban MJ's music, and you don't want to be the biggest dumba$$ hypocrite of all time, then you are also going to have to ban practically every other worthwhile invention and work of art and music ever conceived and the world would be a much, much poorer place for it. The anti-MJ hysteria is just that, the brainless ba-ba bleating of people too busy with moral posturing and self-righteousness to actually think about anything.

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Handle9

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#2196106 11-Mar-2019 21:10

gzt:
Rikkitic: Banning his music or anyone else's is the height of hysterical hypocritical self-righteous pc BS. What a load of crap.

Jackson's music has not been banned. Some radio stations have made a commercial decision not to play it in the belief that playing it will harm their commercial interests. Calling that decision a ban seems overheated.

Completely agree. His music is not banned, it's still freely available. Outrage culture is pretty universal unfortunately.

Rikkitic

Awrrr
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#2196110 11-Mar-2019 21:12

gzt:
Rikkitic: Banning his music or anyone else's is the height of hysterical hypocritical self-righteous pc BS. What a load of crap.

Jackson's music has not been banned. Some radio stations have made a commercial decision not to play it in the belief that playing it will harm their commercial interests. Calling that decision a ban seems overheated.

Thank you for pointing that out. I used the term because others did, but you are correct. Technically it is not a ban though the effect may be similar.

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FineWine

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#2196134 11-Mar-2019 21:44

Sexual, physical & mental abuse allegations have been around in the entertainment industry since we started using the word entertainment in all its contexts. Was it, is it, right NO. Is it wrong YES. Some of the victims accepted it though because they wanted; advancement, acceptance, to be wanted, to be liked, to be loved, a job, a role, a pay raise. Some did nothing because of threats, real or perceived, to life or limb to family or friends. Some even spoke out and paid the price, some the ultimate price.

Even today 'Social Media' app's and the 'Cloud' are starting to back fire on the teens & 20's & 30's of the last 10 to 15 years. If they want to run for office especially in a hypocritical democracy like the good old US of A where the gloves can come off and anything goes, then that sexting chat or full or part nude that you did 10 to 15 years earlier as a 16 year old to a 14 year old, might just come back and bite you. What if you had just received the Noble Price for inventing a full on one shot cure for HIV and those old excitable, titillating snaps, texts or tweets, come to light, do we take away the award and ridicule the person and stop using the vaccine ?

As the old saying goes, 'where there is smoke, there is usually fire' and there certainly has been a lot of smoke around MJ for a long time. Will I stop watching his music videos and listening to his music NO. Will I stop watching Miramax films because of Harvey Weinstein NO. And the list goes on. I will not stop watching or listening to an artists body of work because of what he or she, real or perceived, did behind closed doors. Should he or she keep receiving royalties YES. Should all attempts be made to legally prove or disprove allegations YES. Should the alleged victims be making money off the alleged perpetrators prior to due legal process NO.

Whilst the difficult we can do immediately, the impossible takes a bit longer. However, miracles you will have to wait for.

Geektastic

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#2196151 11-Mar-2019 22:25

My earlier reply appears to have vanished (unless I have gone blind).

You have to separate the art from the person. There is an enormous list of people who have produced great art who behaved in ways which today's neo-puritan zeitgeist would complain about.

If a Doctor were to invent a cure for cancer, then later on be found accused of similar things to MJ in decades past, would everyone suddenly demand that the cure be dropped? "This DHB has decided to cease offering to cure cancer as it does not wish to be seen to be supporting the offender."

I think we all know the answer to that one - so it will only apply where the expression of outrage does not really impinge on anyone's life inconveniently.

Batman

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#2196152 11-Mar-2019 22:29

Geektastic:

My earlier reply appears to have vanished (unless I have gone blind).

You have to separate the art from the person. There is an enormous list of people who have produced great art who behaved in ways which today's neo-puritan zeitgeist would complain about.

If a Doctor were to invent a cure for cancer, then later on be found accused of similar things to MJ in decades past, would everyone suddenly demand that the cure be dropped? "This DHB has decided to cease offering to cure cancer as it does not wish to be seen to be supporting the offender."

I think we all know the answer to that one - so it will only apply where the expression of outrage does not really impinge on anyone's life inconveniently.

Might be in the other thread. Not sure why there are 2 MJ threads.

vexxxboy

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#2196165 11-Mar-2019 22:43

Batman:

Geektastic:

My earlier reply appears to have vanished (unless I have gone blind).

You have to separate the art from the person. There is an enormous list of people who have produced great art who behaved in ways which today's neo-puritan zeitgeist would complain about.

If a Doctor were to invent a cure for cancer, then later on be found accused of similar things to MJ in decades past, would everyone suddenly demand that the cure be dropped? "This DHB has decided to cease offering to cure cancer as it does not wish to be seen to be supporting the offender."

I think we all know the answer to that one - so it will only apply where the expression of outrage does not really impinge on anyone's life inconveniently.

Might be in the other thread. Not sure why there are 2 MJ threads.

the cure or discovery has to stand but the person who found the cure or discovered something vital can almost be wiped from history. Case in point DNA Scientist James Watson.

Common sense is not as common as you think.

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Geektastic

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#2196169 11-Mar-2019 22:56

vexxxboy:

Batman:

Geektastic:

My earlier reply appears to have vanished (unless I have gone blind).

You have to separate the art from the person. There is an enormous list of people who have produced great art who behaved in ways which today's neo-puritan zeitgeist would complain about.

If a Doctor were to invent a cure for cancer, then later on be found accused of similar things to MJ in decades past, would everyone suddenly demand that the cure be dropped? "This DHB has decided to cease offering to cure cancer as it does not wish to be seen to be supporting the offender."

I think we all know the answer to that one - so it will only apply where the expression of outrage does not really impinge on anyone's life inconveniently.

Might be in the other thread. Not sure why there are 2 MJ threads.

the cure or discovery has to stand but the person who found the cure or discovered something vital can almost be wiped from history. Case in point DNA Scientist James Watson.

Well, no one wiped him from my mind. I don't even know what he is supposed to have done, to be honest and whatever it was it doesn't detract from his genius.

Likewise it seems most unlikely that the scientist who invents a cure for cancer will ever be airbrushed from history.

FineWine

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#2196173 11-Mar-2019 23:10

Geektastic: ......... neo-puritan zeitgeist...........

WOW this truly is a forum of Geeks 🤓. Mind you it is coming @Geektastic. 🤓🤓

zeitgeist I learnt about 25 odd years ago during my Uni days then never heard or read about it till the last couple of years, so it is back in fashion.

Now neo-puritan I have always heard or read about as I tend to watch or read a lot of UK and USA 'current affairs' and it pops up fairly regularly especially when you talk about 'red necks'.

But neo-puritan zeitgeist together, that is a new one on me.

You gotta love the English language, the polyglot of the world. 🌏 🌍 🌎

Whilst the difficult we can do immediately, the impossible takes a bit longer. However, miracles you will have to wait for.

Malboo

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#2196189 12-Mar-2019 01:28

Would any parent on here let their 7 year old boy spend the night in MJ's bedroom when he was alive......just saying

Batman

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#2196270 12-Mar-2019 08:03

Malboo:

Would any parent on here let their 7 year old boy spend the night in MJ's bedroom when he was alive......just saying

today, i won't even let my 11 year old go to the mall with anyone.

but back in the day, people were more trusting perhaps?

dafman

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#2196291 12-Mar-2019 08:55

Malboo:

Would any parent on here let their 7 year old boy spend the night in MJ's bedroom when he was alive......just saying

They did.

I think the documentary provides some insight into how MJ managed this. He was the world's biggest star, a living legend, and his targets were working class families. He set out to make ordinary people feel very special, lifting them out of the mundane and into an elite life of mega wealth and megastars. Yet he acted child-like, innocent and vulnerable when alone with them. He earned their trust; he needed them and became part of their family. It's hard to imagine what this type of manipulation does to a vulnerable psyche - the world's biggest megastar has chosen you and your family to become his family.

Or, in short, he methodically groomed them. He was patient, cunning and predatory and in the end he won the trust he had set out achieve. And once he had it, he was free to routinely sexually abuse their children.

Would it happen today? Who knows, the world today is a lot different than it was 30 years ago.

Rikkitic

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#2196297 12-Mar-2019 09:07

dafman:

Would it happen today? Who knows, the world today is a lot different than it was 30 years ago.

It is and it isn't. Slavery, including sex slavery, seems to be a big problem. Those with money just do their shopping in the third world.

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Fred99

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#2196319 12-Mar-2019 09:19

Batman:

Malboo:

Would any parent on here let their 7 year old boy spend the night in MJ's bedroom when he was alive......just saying

today, i won't even let my 11 year old go to the mall with anyone.

but back in the day, people were more trusting perhaps?

Possibly.

Though Jackson was pretty thorough in his predatory behaviour and had the advantage of talent, huge fame and wealth.

Create oneself as a magic fairy tale character, build a real life fairy land, target ambitious parents and seduce them, move in for the kill and seduce the children, get away with it, do it again.

Could happen again. By the '90s the fact was known that a grown adult man had been and continued to sleep with unrelated young boys, and a whole industry of fans and deniers made excuses surrounding something extremely abnormal, effectively suggesting that because Jackson was a fairy-tale character he was as innocent and pure as freshly fallen snow.

And they're still doing it - even in this thread - defending MJ.

Fred99

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#2196321 12-Mar-2019 09:23

Geektastic:

I don't even know what he is supposed to have done, to be honest and whatever it was it doesn't detract from his genius.

I don't believe that you "don't know what he's supposed to have done". It's been news for almost 3 decades.

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