Are you better or worse off?

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#548483 22-Nov-2011 15:11

NonprayingMantis:Except, unless the voting was extremely tight between MCDs and BK, my vote would make no difference to the ultimate result. And if it makes no difference, how can it be said to be contributing?

I am sorry, but this way of thinking is really puerile and show your lack of understanding of the concept of democracy. As it was pointed out to you earlier, the whole system would not work if everyone had the same view.

I understand your desire to "make a difference" and be the one with the casting vote but try and see the issue differently: "every little bit counts"

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#548488 22-Nov-2011 15:16

Under MMP every vote DOES actually count, since it has an influence over how many seats your party holds and therefore how much power they hold and how easy it is for them to make decisions with or without other party involvement. Under MMP your suggestion that your one vote makes no difference makes no sense.

Do you run your whole life by this principle? Do you not recycle because your one bit isn't going to make enough of an impact? Do you refuse to work for large companies because you are only a small part?

NonprayingMantis

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#548489 22-Nov-2011 15:19

gcorgnet:
NonprayingMantis:Except, unless the voting was extremely tight between MCDs and BK, my vote would make no difference to the ultimate result. And if it makes no difference, how can it be said to be contributing?

I am sorry, but this way of thinking is really puerile and show your lack of understanding of the concept of democracy. As it was pointed out to you earlier, the whole system would not work if everyone had the same view.

I understand your desire to "make a difference" and be the one with the casting vote but try and see the issue differently: "every little bit counts"

actually I think it shows your lack of understanding of statistics. 'every little bit' doesn't count.
Unless the election isn't going to result in a tie or 1 vote difference (which it almost certianly won't), then my vote makes precisely no difference*.

why does it matter what would happen if everyone thought this way? They don't.

(*and I'm fairly sure that even if it was a tie, my vote still wouldn't make a difference because of the way MMP works)

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#548492 22-Nov-2011 15:20

Who says I don’t care? Just because I choose not to vote, doesn’t mean I don’t care.
I am just acknowledging that my vote has almost zero chance of making any difference so it is not worht the effort.
Probably got more chance of winning the lotto, yet does that mean that people who don't buy lotto tickets don't care about money.

Actually not voting says you don't care, because if you cared, then you would want to try and have things the way you want them, and not voting doesn't give you that chance.

People who buy lotto tickets have some chance of winning lotto, those who don't have none.

NonprayingMantis

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#548494 22-Nov-2011 15:24

networkn: Under MMP every vote DOES actually count, since it has an influence over how many seats your party holds and therefore how much power they hold and how easy it is for them to make decisions with or without other party involvement. Under MMP your suggestion that your one vote makes no difference makes no sense.

really?
Simple test for that. Let’s go back to the 2008 election. Imagine you didn’t vote. Would the outcome have been any different? I put it to you that it wouldn’t. Each party would have gotten the same number of seats, and the same people would have been elected. Therefore, your individual vote made no difference.

Do you run your whole life by this principle? Do you not recycle because your one bit isn't going to make enough of an impact? Do you refuse to work for large companies because you are only a small part?

Recycling is a different case – each thing recycled does actually make a difference. A very small difference, but a difference nonetheless. With voting, each vote does not make a difference. Only a casting vote actually makes a difference.

Same goes for working for companies – small things do add up. If I work for a company that makes $50bn profit and I personally generate $100k of that profit, then I have still made a difference. You are confusing materiality, and actual impact.

My recycling and working for large companies might not have a material impact in the scheme of things, but it still does have an impact. The impact pof my vote is not simply immaterial – it is actually 0

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#548495 22-Nov-2011 15:25

NonprayingMantis:
gcorgnet:
NonprayingMantis:Except, unless the voting was extremely tight between MCDs and BK, my vote would make no difference to the ultimate result. And if it makes no difference, how can it be said to be contributing?

I am sorry, but this way of thinking is really puerile and show your lack of understanding of the concept of democracy. As it was pointed out to you earlier, the whole system would not work if everyone had the same view.

I understand your desire to "make a difference" and be the one with the casting vote but try and see the issue differently: "every little bit counts"

actually I think it shows your lack of understanding of statistics. 'every little bit' doesn't count.
Unless the election isn't going to result in a tie or 1 vote difference (which it almost certianly won't), then my vote makes precisely no difference*.

why does it matter what would happen if everyone thought this way? They don't.

(*and I'm fairly sure that even if it was a tie, my vote still wouldn't make a difference because of the way MMP works)

Also in the time it's taken you to argue not voting vs voting you could have voted and made it moot.

NonprayingMantis

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#548497 22-Nov-2011 15:27

networkn:
NonprayingMantis:
gcorgnet:
NonprayingMantis:Except, unless the voting was extremely tight between MCDs and BK, my vote would make no difference to the ultimate result. And if it makes no difference, how can it be said to be contributing?

I am sorry, but this way of thinking is really puerile and show your lack of understanding of the concept of democracy. As it was pointed out to you earlier, the whole system would not work if everyone had the same view.

I understand your desire to "make a difference" and be the one with the casting vote but try and see the issue differently: "every little bit counts"

actually I think it shows your lack of understanding of statistics. 'every little bit' doesn't count.
Unless the election isn't going to result in a tie or 1 vote difference (which it almost certianly won't), then my vote makes precisely no difference*.

why does it matter what would happen if everyone thought this way? They don't.

(*and I'm fairly sure that even if it was a tie, my vote still wouldn't make a difference because of the way MMP works)

Also in the time it's taken you to argue not voting vs voting you could have voted and made it moot.

True, although I derive enjoyment (‘utility’) from having these debates, so having them isn’t really a cost to me, it’s a benefit.

I don’t derive utility from driving 15 minutes to tick a box, then driving back.

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#548498 22-Nov-2011 15:29

NonprayingMantis:
networkn: Under MMP every vote DOES actually count, since it has an influence over how many seats your party holds and therefore how much power they hold and how easy it is for them to make decisions with or without other party involvement. Under MMP your suggestion that your one vote makes no difference makes no sense.

really?
Simple test for that. Let’s go back to the 2008 election. Imagine you didn’t vote. Would the outcome have been any different? I put it to you that it wouldn’t. Each party would have gotten the same number of seats, and the same people would have been elected. Therefore, your individual vote made no difference.

Do you run your whole life by this principle? Do you not recycle because your one bit isn't going to make enough of an impact? Do you refuse to work for large companies because you are only a small part?

Recycling is a different case – each thing recycled does actually make a difference. A very small difference, but a difference nonetheless. With voting, each vote does not make a difference. Only a casting vote actually makes a difference.

Same goes for working for companies – small things do add up. If I work for a company that makes $50bn profit and I personally generate $100k of that profit, then I have still made a difference. You are confusing materiality, and actual impact.

My recycling and working for large companies might not have a material impact in the scheme of things, but it still does have an impact. The impact pof my vote is not simply immaterial – it is actually 0

What a crock! MMP means that more votes helps control how each party gets seats and has a say.

Secondly based on your logic, only 1 person in the whole country needs to vote because other than that all other votes are pointless? If that's the case who gets to vote? It's clearer than it was before this isn't about anything other than laziness.

Your vote might make a very small difference but it IS a difference, just like your recycling.

NonprayingMantis

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#548499 22-Nov-2011 15:31

networkn:

Who says I don’t care? Just because I choose not to vote, doesn’t mean I don’t care.
I am just acknowledging that my vote has almost zero chance of making any difference so it is not worht the effort.
Probably got more chance of winning the lotto, yet does that mean that people who don't buy lotto tickets don't care about money.

Actually not voting says you don't care, because if you cared, then you would want to try and have things the way you want them, and not voting doesn't give you that chance.

voting gives me an equal chance of having things the way I want them i.e. 0, so why should I waste my time when I can have the same impact by staying at home?

People who buy lotto tickets have some chance of winning lotto, those who don't have none.

exactly, but we don't say that people who don't buy lotto don't care about money, do we?

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#548500 22-Nov-2011 15:35

Actually staying at home gives you no chance to voice your opinion, it sounds like you have no desire to voice your opinion and if that's the case, then don't vote, but if you want your say, you can't use the argument that you can't control the outcome so there is no point, otherwise why do many things you do day to day which have no point, including having this conversation since it's unlikely you will change the outcome. Why bother ever having an opinion.

Also lotto and money argument isn't really reasoned. You don't play lotto to live, you play lotto to take your very small chance you might win some money. People who care about money don't use lotto as their only source of income!

NonprayingMantis

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#548502 22-Nov-2011 15:37

networkn:
NonprayingMantis:
networkn: Under MMP every vote DOES actually count, since it has an influence over how many seats your party holds and therefore how much power they hold and how easy it is for them to make decisions with or without other party involvement. Under MMP your suggestion that your one vote makes no difference makes no sense.

really?
Simple test for that. Let’s go back to the 2008 election. Imagine you didn’t vote. Would the outcome have been any different? I put it to you that it wouldn’t. Each party would have gotten the same number of seats, and the same people would have been elected. Therefore, your individual vote made no difference.

Do you run your whole life by this principle? Do you not recycle because your one bit isn't going to make enough of an impact? Do you refuse to work for large companies because you are only a small part?

Recycling is a different case – each thing recycled does actually make a difference. A very small difference, but a difference nonetheless. With voting, each vote does not make a difference. Only a casting vote actually makes a difference.

Same goes for working for companies – small things do add up. If I work for a company that makes $50bn profit and I personally generate $100k of that profit, then I have still made a difference. You are confusing materiality, and actual impact.

My recycling and working for large companies might not have a material impact in the scheme of things, but it still does have an impact. The impact pof my vote is not simply immaterial – it is actually 0

What a crock! MMP means that more votes helps control how each party gets seats and has a say.

Secondly based on your logic, only 1 person in the whole country needs to vote because other than that all other votes are pointless? If that's the case who gets to vote? It's clearer than it was before this isn't about anything other than laziness.

Your vote might make a very small difference but it IS a difference, just like your recycling.

you really really don't understand statistics do you?

my vote makes no difference. evidence: lookup the voting results from 2008. would a single vote anywhere at all have changed anything? Nope.

Now let’s imagine that the value of the country’s recycling last year was $1,234,456,444. If I had not recycled and contributed (say) $1000 towards that then the value of the recycling would not have been 1,234,456,444, it would have been 1,234,455,444 – a difference of $1000. So my recycling did make a difference.

The difference here is that you are conflating the impact of lots of tiny things that add up to something with an all or nothing result.

Recycling is the sum total of lots of tiny things – each thing makes a small difference and they all add up to some number.

An election is an all or nothing. Either your vote made a difference, or it didn’t. It only makes a difference if it is the casting vote – and the chances of it being the casting vote is absolutely tiny. That doesn’t mean the impact is tiny, it means the impact is either zero (most likely) or massive (incredibly unlikely)

Bee

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#548504 22-Nov-2011 15:45

I guess what it comes down to ultimately - vote or don't vote, but don't complain about the government and parliament if you don't vote.

I don't buy lotto tickets because I know the chances of me winning are small so its a waste of money. However complaining that I never win lotto is really silly because I cant possibly win without buying a ticket.

I consider voting my contribution to society... it may or may not have an impact in any way but at least I participated and tried...

Doing your best is much more important than being the best.

NonprayingMantis

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#548506 22-Nov-2011 15:48

networkn: Actually staying at home gives you no chance to voice your opinion, it sounds like you have no desire to voice your opinion and if that's the case, then don't vote, but if you want your say, you can't use the argument that you can't control the outcome so there is no point, otherwise why do many things you do day to day which have no point, including having this conversation since it's unlikely you will change the outcome. Why bother ever having an opinion.

If it’s about voicing an opinion, rather than making a difference to the result, then fair enough, vote away, although even then it still isn’t a very good way of voicing an opinion.

If I want to voice my opinion I can do it in many ways.
Voting is probably the least useful of them.
Why?
Because I only have a limited choice and nobody will know why I voted for a particular candidate.

Let’s say I agree with a candidate’s policy on lowering taxes, but disagree with his policy on mandatory abortions for teenage mums. If I vote for him then am I voicing an opinion in support of lower taxes or mandatory abortions?
Nobody will ever know.
However, if I write a letter to the paper, post on a blog, or something similar, then I can voice my opinion in a much better and more specific way. It still won’t change anything probably, but if my objective is just to voice an opinion then that doesn’t matter.

(I’m not trying to change anyone’s opinion here – I am just having fun explaining.)

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#548508 22-Nov-2011 15:49

I love elections. Just because of how cranky people get.
I have no idea - I don't care. I don't even know what right/left wing means.

I do enjoy a good election tanty though.

To answer the OP's question: Am I better off. Better off how? Financially? Yes, but that's due to my hard work, not because of the government. I also think I'm happier (married my long term girlfriend) and enjoying life more. Probably helped because I don't care about this sort of trivial stuff.

The day I start caring about this stuff is the day I know I'm worse off!

Edit: To clarify, I'll vote. I have an opinion. I just don't care if no one really listens to it :)

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#548509 22-Nov-2011 15:51

I am struggling to see why you aren't addressing the point which has been made time and time again. MMP DOES cater for the single voter. Also your vote DOES make a difference regardless, if 10 people vote, there are 10 votes, if 11 vote, then there are 11 votes. That is a DIFFERENCE. What you are arguing is the OUTCOME, and not being able to affect it. I would put it to you that you have as much chance of changing the outcome of the recycling benefit (In fact much less), as you would of the voting OUTCOME.

I do understand statistics, it's not about statistics, it's about your claim that you shouldn't vote because you can't single handedly controlling the outcome of the election. You can have some effect on the outcome on MMP, you just don't want to do it based on the fact you can't control the outcome on your own.

I wonder then if you feel that there would be no point to being in the military because you can't single handedly control the outcome, or going to work in a team for the same reason.

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