The Missing Billions

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mattwnz

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#706341 25-Oct-2012 16:11

gzt: Pasting a url between tags is not hard.

Geekzones html editor doesn't work in opera, so have HTML formating disabled which prevents the url automatically becoming a link. Have manually added url tags to the last post but the other is to old to be edit.

crackrdbycracku

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#706343 25-Oct-2012 16:15

John2010: regard as being fair.

To be completely simplistic it relies on trust. Do we trust the government to be giving us value for money? Do we trust companies to pay any tax at all without trying to avoid it? I'm sure you can avoid payroll tax if you try.

I lived in Japan for a while, basically they get by well because they all see themselves as Team Japan and act accordingly. The individual sees their welfare as liked to the country. But, of course, everything comes with a price.

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TinyTim

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#706344 25-Oct-2012 16:16

mattwnz:
gzt: Pasting a url between tags is not hard.

Geekzones html editor doesn't work in opera, so have HTML formating disabled which prevents the url automatically becoming a link. Have manually added url tags to the last post but the other is to old to be edit.

yes it does, I'm using it now

mattwnz

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#706346 25-Oct-2012 16:20

TinyTim:
mattwnz:
gzt: Pasting a url between tags is not hard.

Geekzones html editor doesn't work in opera, so have HTML formating disabled which prevents the url automatically becoming a link. Have manually added url tags to the last post but the other is to old to be edit.

yes it does, I'm using it now

Maybe they have since fixed it, but when I used to post from the html editor it would just display a blank post.

gzt

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#706387 25-Oct-2012 17:03

DonGould: I account for all my jobs, why shouldn't everyone?

Litespeed: Exactly. To illustrate my point, I know a tradesman who sometimes does 10k+ cashies.

Many are simply financially not competent and will take up any opportunity to avoid paying tax to make up a shortfall due to badly planned or overspending or simply cannot resist the temptation to increase take home income by not paying tax.

Everyone in the trades can tell you stories of tradespeople with growing businesses beginning to employ many people and continuing to believe they could take this kind of approach to running an ever larger business. These stories do not end well for suppliers and subcontractors and anyone else with a relationship to these people.

Bad business planning leading to even worse decisions does not help anyone.

The guy doing the occasional 10K cashies is avoiding tax on income but that is not all. He avoids collecting GST from the customer - and may still claim a GST refund on materials.

mattwnz

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#706404 25-Oct-2012 17:19

gzt: He avoids collecting GST from the customer - and may still claim a GST refund on materials.

And hopefully the IRD are catching those people, and putting some of our taxpayer money to use in doing so. These days data matching should be able to find some of these people.

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John2010

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#706437 25-Oct-2012 18:04

crackrdbycracku:
John2010: regard as being fair.

To be completely simplistic it relies on trust. Do we trust the government to be giving us value for money? Do we trust companies to pay any tax at all without trying to avoid it?...

Your response is an example of the problem, a total focus on the practices (as you assume them to be) of companies, with no mention of personal taxpayers. I often come individuals that do cash jobs, or demand cash wages. And I take it that unlike companies you as an individual try hard to pay as much tax as you possibly can. I know that most people are only inclined to pay that which they are legally required to do and no more; just like those companies which the chattering classes think are nasty for endeavouring to pay only that tax they are legally required to do.

Of course, if you want to maximise your own personal tax obligations I am sure any accountant will help you out, but at the same time regard you as being extremely unusual

. Just think, if you do so his profits will increase so he will end up paying more tax, and you will be paying more too, so your good deed will be a double return one for revenue

crackrdbycracku: ...I'm sure you can avoid payroll tax if you try...

No there is no way they cannot avoid payroll tax, they can only try to evade it which is both illegal and very difficult, so for those in every walk of life who are crooked it a big risk and cost for little return when the payroll tax is the only tax the company pays and is of the magnitude of only around 13%. Evasion is just not an issue (just as it hasn't been in other countries with low direct tax regimes such as Hong Kong where max tax is approx 15%).

But as I say, our hobbit like conciousness and misplaced inclination to sucumb to hidden envy will keep us from being a prosperous nation, and thus from the benefits for all of being so. Do you know that "poms" I know regard us as the whingers now? Just listen to Morning Report, 3 hours each weekday of people whinging and complaining about their own narrow little petty interests or wierd ideas.

JimmyH

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#706462 25-Oct-2012 18:46

Litespeed:

Exactly.

To illustrate my point, I know a tradesman who sometimes does 10k+ cashies.

Although, to be fair, cash jobs aren't always about avoiding tax and aren't illegal if the money is properly declared to IRD. I also know a tradesman who does some jobs for cash, and as far as I know is is very above board for tax - and it's actually dumb not to be otherwise, if you get caught, the penalties are horrendous. His reason has nothing to do with tax. Quite simply he was getting tired of bad debts, late payments, and endless chasing people for payment. So now, if he has any doubts about a customer, it's cash in advance or no job done.

mattwnz

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#706471 25-Oct-2012 18:58

JimmyH:
Litespeed:

Exactly.

To illustrate my point, I know a tradesman who sometimes does 10k+ cashies.

Although, to be fair, cash jobs aren't always about avoiding tax and aren't illegal if the money is properly declared to IRD. I also know a tradesman who does some jobs for cash, and as far as I know is is very above board for tax - and it's actually dumb not to be otherwise, if you get caught, the penalties are horrendous. His reason has nothing to do with tax. Quite simply he was getting tired of bad debts, late payments, and endless chasing people for payment. So now, if he has any doubts about a customer, it's cash in advance or no job done.

If he is declaring a 'cash job' to the IRD, then it isn't really a 'cash job' in that defination, because he will have to pay tax on it. It sounds like you are describing a 'cash on delivery' . Most companies however will do the work and invoice for it later, which is better for the buyer. Unless they offer a discount for quick cash payment.

Athlonite

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#706868 26-Oct-2012 12:51

Brendan:
NonprayingMantis: marmite article in the herald today said sanitarium pays no tax because it is, supposedly, a religious organisation, despite obviously being a commercial business. It doesn;t even have to go through any sorts of loopholes either. religious things pay no tax for some insane reason.

It's a disgusting legacy from hundreds of years of power elite dictating law. In past ages, churches were a power elite, and we are STILL paying for it.

You and me subsidize these organisations with OUR tax.

They talk a lot of mumbo-jumbo, take your money, and create a lot of harm in our society and around the world. It's the biggest scam of the LOT!

These parasitic organisations should be taxed as businesses and treated as such - for that is what they really are and always have been.

Charity? We can do that without the superstitious, dangerous dogma.

br

And for proof one only has to look at Brian Tamaki and the Destiny church

he was a poor bastard now he's a rich as sh!t mofo all thanks to the "Church" and paying NO tax

gzt

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#706875 26-Oct-2012 12:57

This is not really true. He and his retinue will all be paying tax on the income they receive from the church.

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crackrdbycracku

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#706935 26-Oct-2012 14:00

John2010:
Your response is an example of the problem, a total focus on the practices (as you assume them to be) of companies, with no mention of personal taxpayers.

To be fair I was responding in the context of your post which referenced a country without much personal tax and got it's tax take from company taxation.

No there is no way they cannot avoid payroll tax, they can only try to evade it which is both illegal and very difficult, so for those in every walk of life who are crooked it a big risk and cost for little return when the payroll tax is the only tax the company pays and is of the magnitude of only around 13%.

The difference between 'avoidance' and 'evasion' is getting punished and if criminals will risk jail for a few dollars wouldn't accountants risk it for a few million?

Maybe our tax system keeps us from prosperity judging by house prices it appears that the problem isn't so much prosperity as such but more equitable sharing of the prosperity we have.

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