Tiwai Point and Rio Tinto

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#790767 2-Apr-2013 15:24

Skolink:
TheUngeek: Yeah but doesn't mention anything about hydro or the windfarms downsized etc
If the greens had thier way, we'd be back in the dark ages

Burning coal is the dark ages.

And windfarms are the Emperor's new clothes.

mattwnz

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#790783 2-Apr-2013 15:53

The government fell into this trap well, and many people predicted this would happen right before the share float. This is possibly good for potential shareholders, as it makes the company worth less due to the uncertainty. But means NZ taxers will likely get less for the assets.

Really there needs to be a proper feasibility plan provided. If we do provide cheaper power, aren't the rest of NZ just subsidising that cheaper power for them? It looks to be more about contract duration, as apparently they want an 18 year contract, and the government only want to provide a short term contract. It will probably take up to 5 years for the plant to close down anyway, so the job losses will be over time. I don't know if it is hte end of the world if it closes, just potential for new opportunities.

Linuxluver

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#792464 3-Apr-2013 15:33

old3eyes:

As I said before Labor in 9 years did nothing about it either..

Another reason I don't vote for them.

Labour did bring in the levy on generators and did mandate a requirement for a backup generator to avoid peaks in the wholesale price. But

We won't have sane power arrangements in this country until the Greens are in government. Labour and National are too blinkered by narrow-minded business backers who are 20 years behind the current data on most topics. Many of them still deny climate change and think "the market" will provide when 30 years of almost complete failure makes it abundantly clear it will not "provide" anything but a few rich winners and the rest are poor peasants.

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MikeSkyrme

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#792470 3-Apr-2013 15:44

Linuxluver:
old3eyes:

As I said before Labor in 9 years did nothing about it either..

Another reason I don't vote for them.

Labour did bring in the levy on generators and did mandate a requirement for a backup generator to avoid peaks in the wholesale price. But

We won't have sane power arrangements in this country until the Greens are in government. Labour and National are too blinkered by narrow-minded business backers who are 20 years behind the current data on most topics. Many of them still deny climate change and think "the market" will provide when 30 years of almost complete failure makes it abundantly clear it will not "provide" anything but a few rich winners and the rest are poor peasants.

I guess it depends on your definition of sane.
I believe that multiple power generation sites, all interlinked to form a network, comprising conventional (yes, including fossil fuel use) generation forms and newer, greener (but less efficient) forms of power generation are required to completely cater for the power needs of NZ.
I do not believe my vision and the Greens' vision are fully aligned, but I believe mine is definitely sane....

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Linuxluver

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#793009 4-Apr-2013 11:00

MikeSkyrme:
Linuxluver:
old3eyes:

As I said before Labor in 9 years did nothing about it either..

Another reason I don't vote for them.

Labour did bring in the levy on generators and did mandate a requirement for a backup generator to avoid peaks in the wholesale price. But

We won't have sane power arrangements in this country until the Greens are in government. Labour and National are too blinkered by narrow-minded business backers who are 20 years behind the current data on most topics. Many of them still deny climate change and think "the market" will provide when 30 years of almost complete failure makes it abundantly clear it will not "provide" anything but a few rich winners and the rest are poor peasants.

I guess it depends on your definition of sane.
I believe that multiple power generation sites, all interlinked to form a network, comprising conventional (yes, including fossil fuel use) generation forms and newer, greener (but less efficient) forms of power generation are required to completely cater for the power needs of NZ.
I do not believe my vision and the Greens' vision are fully aligned, but I believe mine is definitely sane....

The alignment is almost perfect.

The Greens would see the goal of providing power to be....providing power.

Labour and national have - by deed if not words - seen the goal of providing power to be revenue / profit.

This is why we have been paying far more for power than we needed to and at the same time risking shortages of power. "The market" operating as designed: creating 'scarcity' to support higher prices. The whole economy as suffered as a result. Energy is a huge part of cost.

Itis no mistake that corporate interests want to sequester energy assets in their hands as energy is going to be a HUGE strategic issue in the years ahead as fossil fuels become ever more problematic to use in large quantities due to climate change.

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networkn

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#793019 4-Apr-2013 11:12

Linuxluver: So let me get this straight.

But it looks like the government has a policy of maintaining inflated power prices.....so we ALL pay more.

Heh, yes it's all a conspiracy to screw the people who elected them!

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Linuxluver

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#793023 4-Apr-2013 11:15

networkn:
Linuxluver: So let me get this straight.

But it looks like the government has a policy of maintaining inflated power prices.....so we ALL pay more.

Heh, yes it's all a conspiracy to screw the people who elected them!

That won't be how they see it...but it most definitely is the outcome.

best not to confuse motivation with out comes....It assumes they know what they're doing...and they clearly don't.

UPDATE: They want a good sales price for the assets...and EVERYONE paying more for power is the collateral damage. If they had a clue, they wouldn't be selling the assets and we'd all have chepaer power.

They have no clues.

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networkn

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#793024 4-Apr-2013 11:16

We won't have sane power arrangements in this country until the Greens are in government. Labour and National are too blinkered by narrow-minded business backers who are 20 years behind the current data on most topics. Many of them still deny climate change and think "the market" will provide when 30 years of almost complete failure makes it abundantly clear it will not "provide" anything but a few rich winners and the rest are poor peasants.

The Greens won't be in Government any time soon. Not until they moderate their "crazy". They had some decent policies at the last election, though they threw it all away when they ruined others posters and did stupid activist behaviours, exposing their continued core values to be that of fringe lunatics.

Also you might get "cheaper" power but the economy of the entire country would be in ruins, some of the comments made by leaders of the Green party about economics are terrifying. They would be ok at best as a supporting partner, but I shudder to think what would have happened if they had been in charge during the CHCH Earthquakes.

Also you might want to consider how their interactions with other world leaders would be, and that they would struggle to command respect (even less than our current or prior leader have)

Linuxluver

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#793037 4-Apr-2013 11:24

networkn:

We won't have sane power arrangements in this country until the Greens are in government. Labour and National are too blinkered by narrow-minded business backers who are 20 years behind the current data on most topics. Many of them still deny climate change and think "the market" will provide when 30 years of almost complete failure makes it abundantly clear it will not "provide" anything but a few rich winners and the rest are poor peasants.

The Greens won't be in Government any time soon. Not until they moderate their "crazy". They had some decent policies at the last election, though they threw it all away when they ruined others posters and did stupid activist behaviours, exposing their continued core values to be that of fringe lunatics.

Also you might get "cheaper" power but the economy of the entire country would be in ruins, some of the comments made by leaders of the Green party about economics are terrifying. They would be ok at best as a supporting partner, but I shudder to think what would have happened if they had been in charge during the CHCH Earthquakes.

Also you might want to consider how their interactions with other world leaders would be, and that they would struggle to command respect (even less than our current or prior leader have)

The "crazy" is what national are actually doing right now....so I'm not sure what you have in mind about the Greens.

As for the signs....The Nats were destroying other party's signs on the North Shore in the past two elections (I know because I had to fix some of them..at least those that weren't stolen outright) ....so I'd discount that as a serious nation-wide policy issue. Especially as the actions had nothing to do with they parties, per se, and were the actions of people who aren't very bright.

Your understanding of Green economic policy seems to be limited to blind assertions and name-calling..so there isn't really anything substantial to discuss in that area.

Do you support what the present government is doing economically? Your answer will give me some idea of how much you understand about economics and outcomes.

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Regs

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#793070 4-Apr-2013 12:07

so something interesting to consider:

lets say tiwai goes and we drop $1b in exports and GDP as a result.

on the 'plus' side, power is now cheaper and all companies & consumers have more money to spend.

other exporting manufacturers costs now have dropped due to the lower power costs so their cost of goods also drops. does that mean their products are now cheap enough to compete in the world market again? will this have a flow on effect of them selling more to both local and export markets replacing the lost GDP and exports?

economics is complicated and no-one necessarily has all the information to precisely predict the impact. all we can do is try looking at the 'whole' from a number of angles and approaches and hope we 'guesstimate' the net effect of change correctly.

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TheUngeek

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#793091 4-Apr-2013 12:22

The greens financial policy. There's the best joke I've heard all year!
Print more money!

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networkn

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#793106 4-Apr-2013 12:32

Do you support what the present government is doing economically? Your answer will give me some idea of how much you understand about economics and outcomes.

This sums up why arguing with you is pointless. You will decide based on whether I answer yes or no, if I am completely right or wrong about everything. It's pointless to argue with someone who no matter what the evidence that is presented, will never change point of view, I'll bow out now and save us both some frustration.

JimmyH

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#793429 4-Apr-2013 19:46

Linuxluver:

We won't have sane power arrangements in this country until the Greens are in government. Labour and National are too blinkered by narrow-minded business backers who are 20 years behind the current data on most topics. Many of them still deny climate change and think "the market" will provide when 30 years of almost complete failure makes it abundantly clear it will not "provide" anything but a few rich winners and the rest are poor peasants.

I fully expect to have a reliable electricity supply if the Greens get into power - but that will only be because I will have moved to Aus. I can cope with the saner parts of their environmentalism - but its the loopy socialist economics that turn me off ever taking them seriously. If it ever seriously looks like they will have a major part in determining a government's economic policy my retirement savings will be moved into another currency fairly immediately, followed by me if it then comes to pass. In fairness they probably mean well, but on the economic front they have too high a lentil quotient and a serious problem with arse-elbow differentiation.

networkn

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#793431 4-Apr-2013 19:49

JimmyH:
Linuxluver:

We won't have sane power arrangements in this country until the Greens are in government. Labour and National are too blinkered by narrow-minded business backers who are 20 years behind the current data on most topics. Many of them still deny climate change and think "the market" will provide when 30 years of almost complete failure makes it abundantly clear it will not "provide" anything but a few rich winners and the rest are poor peasants.

I fully expect to have a reliable electricity supply if the Greens get into power - but that will only be because I will have moved to Aus. I can cope with the saner parts of their environmentalism - but its the loopy socialist economics that turn me off ever taking them seriously. If it ever seriously looks like they will have a major part in determining a government's economic policy my retirement savings will be moved into another currency fairly immediately, followed by me if it then comes to pass. In fairness they probably mean well, but on the economic front they have too high a lentil quotient and a serious problem with arse-elbow differentiation.

Yup I 100% agree with this.

jonherries

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#793466 4-Apr-2013 20:23

Couple of thoughts:

Concerns about the price of power is directly proportional to the amount you use. Perhaps being more efficient in power use makes this discussion moot.
The irony to me about "outrageous SOE profits" is that these go to the bottom line of the government books, so you pay less tax. If this is a problem for you see the comment above. You can take some smugness to the bank in that situation.

Last comment I would make is that I think although the Greens have some ill-thought-out ideas, there are a couple of things that appeal to me about how they work: they seem to have a lot more integrity and respect for the public through transparency and accountability to their constituency and secondly; they are willing to try out ideas and when they are proved to be crazy they drop them and move on to the next thing. They have done some good stuff like making the government insulate state houses.

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