I am sorry but this really gets to me.

Forums › Off topic › I am sorry but this really gets to me.

1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5

656 posts

Ultimate Geek
Inactive user

#1260024 16-Mar-2015 09:44

KiwiNZ:
joker97: yeah that's true ... but i see MPs as the elite of realestate agents ... the fight their way up there and they get interesting freebies

They work long hours

So do plenty of average kiwi mum and dads on less than substantial wages and what do they get ? substandard wages all of their lives and when \ if they survive to retirement the pittance that the government bestows on them for a lifetime of work.

heylinb4nz

656 posts

Ultimate Geek
Inactive user

#1260043 16-Mar-2015 09:48

KiwiNZ:
joker97: i'm sure they report to their boss who reports to the Minister. Minister has no clue what goes on, the use KPIs. KPIs pretty, minister happy, public outraged. KPIs bad minister angry journalists have a field day, public angrier. no?

So according to your view of the world no knows what they are doing. Wow how on earth is New Zealand succeeding?
And if we were to subscribe to your view nothing would be succeeding in NZ as staff/managing move between public and private sectors constantly.

Having personally dealt with ministers, MPs and judges on some pretty deep matters I can categorically say that they are 99% useless. Stick up for them as much as you want, most of us arent buying it.

MikeB4

18435 posts

Uber Geek

ID Verified

Trusted

#1260044 16-Mar-2015 09:49

heylinb4nz:
KiwiNZ:
joker97: yeah that's true ... but i see MPs as the elite of realestate agents ... the fight their way up there and they get interesting freebies

They work long hours

So do plenty of average kiwi mum and dads on less than substantial wages and what do they get ? substandard wages all of their lives and when \ if they survive to retirement the pittance that the government bestows on them for a lifetime of work.

Everyone is free to better themselves.

heylinb4nz

656 posts

Ultimate Geek
Inactive user

#1260045 16-Mar-2015 09:52

KiwiNZ:
Geektastic:
JimmyH:
khull: Too many digits and zeroes. There is an unstated tale that says he who works in state or government office shall receive higher compensation than an equivalent private employee, yet is allowed to complete duties at half the efficiency.

If that sounds like something that does not keep you awake at night, then a government servant position might be your calling. Else treat them accordingly and do not tolerate such behaviour.

I dispute that.

I have worked in both public sector and private sector roles. In both cases you will find some slackers but, in my experience, public servants typically work every bit as hard as private sector ones. As busy times when we were under pressure I popped in on a few weekends to catch up, and in some cases pretty much half the team was in doing the same to make sure deadlines were hit. And these were salaried folk (and some of the salaries were pretty low too) who are neither required to work on weekends, nor paid a cent extra for doing so. It's called being a professional.

Not exactly over-paid laziness in my book.

For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction...!

In my time in public service (UK and NZ) I have witnessed huge amounts of slacking, as well as departments chock full of staff who frankly could only be employed as some sort of act of charity or alternative to the dole.

I worked for 24 years in Government agencies and my experience was the opposite.

That would explain alot then, if you shovel excrement for long enough it smells like roses. Then again that is all part of working for government, trying to sell excrement to the public as roses, trust me we know the difference and we know exactly what goes on.

Batman

Mad Scientist
29769 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#1260049 16-Mar-2015 09:58

KiwiNZ:
joker97: i'm sure they report to their boss who reports to the Minister. Minister has no clue what goes on, the use KPIs. KPIs pretty, minister happy, public outraged. KPIs bad minister angry journalists have a field day, public angrier. no?

So according to your view of the world no knows what they are doing. Wow how on earth is New Zealand succeeding?
And if we were to subscribe to your view nothing would be succeeding in NZ as staff/managing move between public and private sectors constantly.

you think the Minister has any idea what goes on at ground zero? even for one second?

MikeB4

18435 posts

Uber Geek

ID Verified

Trusted

#1260053 16-Mar-2015 10:10

joker97:
KiwiNZ:
joker97: i'm sure they report to their boss who reports to the Minister. Minister has no clue what goes on, the use KPIs. KPIs pretty, minister happy, public outraged. KPIs bad minister angry journalists have a field day, public angrier. no?

So according to your view of the world no knows what they are doing. Wow how on earth is New Zealand succeeding?
And if we were to subscribe to your view nothing would be succeeding in NZ as staff/managing move between public and private sectors constantly.

you think the Minister has any idea what goes on at ground zero? even for one second?

Yes, the ones I have dealt with over the years certainly knew.

Batman

Mad Scientist
29769 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#1260060 16-Mar-2015 10:18

that's interesting ... who were they?

Quic Broadband

Move to New Zealand's best fibre broadband service (affiliate link). Free setup code: R587125ERQ6VE. Note that to use Quic Broadband you must be comfortable with configuring your own router.

Linuxluver

5828 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

Subscriber

#1260069 16-Mar-2015 10:28

Presso: So this is a rant from me and is my personal opinion and I know everybody will have their own and that's fine.

I was reading this today and it was making me go grrrrrrrrr

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/67387751/former-mps-travel-perk-to-get-a-boost

Why should former MP's get anything at all ??? , once you have done your time that should be it. Why should they be entitled to anything else ??. Sorry but stuff like this really riles me.

Many MPs remain passionate about promoting New Zealand and representing NZ overseas in various organisations. The money spent here is a relatively cheap way to support international relationships. Those have benefits to NZ.

Of course, some other former MPs may well just have a lovely holiday on the money.

Either way....I've known a good number of MPs and for most of them it's an obsessive, intrusive 24/7 job. Family life is disrupted if not almost completely sacrificed. You'd have to be passionate about it on some level or it would be a terrible way to live. Everyone thinks they own you and most of them haven't got a blind clue what the job actually involves.

_____________________________________________________________________

I've been on Geekzone over 16 years..... Time flies....

MikeB4

18435 posts

Uber Geek

ID Verified

Trusted

#1260084 16-Mar-2015 10:53

joker97: that's interesting ... who were they?

Off the top of my head and to name a few....

Michael Cullen
Jenny Shipley
Paula Bennett
Trevor Mallard
Tariana Turia
Steve Maharey

Batman

Mad Scientist
29769 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#1260091 16-Mar-2015 10:58

they sound dedicated

Geektastic

17943 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#1260101 16-Mar-2015 11:04

Linuxluver:
Presso: So this is a rant from me and is my personal opinion and I know everybody will have their own and that's fine.

I was reading this today and it was making me go grrrrrrrrr

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/67387751/former-mps-travel-perk-to-get-a-boost

Why should former MP's get anything at all ??? , once you have done your time that should be it. Why should they be entitled to anything else ??. Sorry but stuff like this really riles me.

Many MPs remain passionate about promoting New Zealand and representing NZ overseas in various organisations. The money spent here is a relatively cheap way to support international relationships. Those have benefits to NZ.

Of course, some other former MPs may well just have a lovely holiday on the money.

Either way....I've known a good number of MPs and for most of them it's an obsessive, intrusive 24/7 job. Family life is disrupted if not almost completely sacrificed. You'd have to be passionate about it on some level or it would be a terrible way to live. Everyone thinks they own you and most of them haven't got a blind clue what the job actually involves.

I know lots of non-MP's who do that.

Foreign travel whilst they are an MP is fine. After, not so much.

I see that they now want to benchmark the allowance against the most expensive airline in NZ - ANZ!!

frankv

5680 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#1260109 16-Mar-2015 11:13

KiwiNZ:
joker97: i'm sure they report to their boss who reports to the Minister. Minister has no clue what goes on, the use KPIs. KPIs pretty, minister happy, public outraged. KPIs bad minister angry journalists have a field day, public angrier. no?

So according to your view of the world no knows what they are doing. Wow how on earth is New Zealand succeeding?
And if we were to subscribe to your view nothing would be succeeding in NZ as staff/managing move between public and private sectors constantly.

Ministers are clueless because they get fed information filtered by their Departments, who get stats that are irrelevant from the service providers and consequently set goals and KPIs that are either impossible or pointless. The service provider management then sets about meeting the KPIs by twisting/distorting the way that they collect their stats, whilst the workers continue to provide the service that the public expects.

Let me give you a concrete example from the Health sector.

I think we all agree that that's a good idea that people are treated promptly in ED.

This is translated to a goal for DHBs that 95% of patients seen in ED must be either admitted to the hospital or discharged within 6 hours. In particular, this 6 hour clock doesn't start until they are seen by a clinician. So people are left languishing in the waiting room for 10, 12 hours or more before being officially triaged by a nurse. Once seen, it is often a good idea to keep them under observation, sometimes for more than 6 hours. So, to meet the 6 hour goal, hospitals have a virtual ward to which patients are admitted. The patient stays in the same bed in ED, receiving exactly the same care from exactly the same doctors and nurses, but is now officially admitted to the hospital. Admission to the hospital involves a whole lot more administration, because it must be reported to the Ministry, funding claimed, forms filled, yada, yada, yada, so it is not done unless necessary. So a patient's time in ED is monitored to ensure that they are in fact admitted or discharged if the 6 hours is close to expiring. Because of the MoH goal, this is important, so monitoring this is added to someone's workload.

The Minister is happy now, because most DHBs are meeting this 95% target. Pressure on the non-compliant DHBs increases. Happy press releases are generated. Good news all round!

The reality, as anyone who has needed ED treatment, is that things have got horrendously worse than (say) 1990. Back then I took my daughter to Hutt ED at 10pm, got more or less immediate treatment. More recently, my wife was injured. First we were sent away to go to an after-hours practice (it being 8:30pm), where we waited 15 minutes, got seen, charged an arm and a leg, then, because it was now nearly 9pm and their Xray facility was closed, sent back to ED, where we got to wait for 3 hours before being sent for Xrays (without any idea of how long we would be waiting), to be seen by a junior doctor who told us that, if only it had been treated promptly, the swelling and pain could have been much less.

Clueless minister? Check!
Irrelevant stats? Check!
Impossible goal? Check!
Pointless goal? Check?
Distorted stats? Check!
Work unchanged? Check!

Outraged? The public ought to be!

MikeB4

18435 posts

Uber Geek

ID Verified

Trusted

#1260129 16-Mar-2015 11:25

frankv:
KiwiNZ:
joker97: i'm sure they report to their boss who reports to the Minister. Minister has no clue what goes on, the use KPIs. KPIs pretty, minister happy, public outraged. KPIs bad minister angry journalists have a field day, public angrier. no?

So according to your view of the world no knows what they are doing. Wow how on earth is New Zealand succeeding?
And if we were to subscribe to your view nothing would be succeeding in NZ as staff/managing move between public and private sectors constantly.

Ministers are clueless because they get fed information filtered by their Departments, who get stats that are irrelevant from the service providers and consequently set goals and KPIs that are either impossible or pointless. The service provider management then sets about meeting the KPIs by twisting/distorting the way that they collect their stats, whilst the workers continue to provide the service that the public expects.

Let me give you a concrete example from the Health sector.

I think we all agree that that's a good idea that people are treated promptly in ED.

This is translated to a goal for DHBs that 95% of patients seen in ED must be either admitted to the hospital or discharged within 6 hours. In particular, this 6 hour clock doesn't start until they are seen by a clinician. So people are left languishing in the waiting room for 10, 12 hours or more before being officially triaged by a nurse. Once seen, it is often a good idea to keep them under observation, sometimes for more than 6 hours. So, to meet the 6 hour goal, hospitals have a virtual ward to which patients are admitted. The patient stays in the same bed in ED, receiving exactly the same care from exactly the same doctors and nurses, but is now officially admitted to the hospital. Admission to the hospital involves a whole lot more administration, because it must be reported to the Ministry, funding claimed, forms filled, yada, yada, yada, so it is not done unless necessary. So a patient's time in ED is monitored to ensure that they are in fact admitted or discharged if the 6 hours is close to expiring. Because of the MoH goal, this is important, so monitoring this is added to someone's workload.

The Minister is happy now, because most DHBs are meeting this 95% target. Pressure on the non-compliant DHBs increases. Happy press releases are generated. Good news all round!

The reality, as anyone who has needed ED treatment, is that things have got horrendously worse than (say) 1990. Back then I took my daughter to Hutt ED at 10pm, got more or less immediate treatment. More recently, my wife was injured. First we were sent away to go to an after-hours practice (it being 8:30pm), where we waited 15 minutes, got seen, charged an arm and a leg, then, because it was now nearly 9pm and their Xray facility was closed, sent back to ED, where we got to wait for 3 hours before being sent for Xrays (without any idea of how long we would be waiting), to be seen by a junior doctor who told us that, if only it had been treated promptly, the swelling and pain could have been much less.

Clueless minister? Check!
Irrelevant stats? Check!
Impossible goal? Check!
Pointless goal? Check?
Distorted stats? Check!
Work unchanged? Check!

Outraged? The public ought to be!

That has nothing to do with Ministers being "clueless" etc that has to do with what the public wants. People want the Government to break even, no surplus no deficit, they also demand 120% service but are only willing to pay for 50% or less service. I know only too well that the health sector has problems but is anyone really willing to pay more taxes or pay user pays fees to improve the heath sector, the answer to that is no

Glassboy

850 posts

Ultimate Geek

ID Verified

Trusted

#1260130 16-Mar-2015 11:27

So out of interest, why are people so keen to be nasty about civil servants and members of parliament?

Are you all having a bad day? Do you for some reason feel entitled to not behave with respect towards anyone involved in the government?

I know of course you're all constantly hard working exemplary citizens whose lifes could be lived in a glasshouse, you being so perfect and all. I'm sure all your profiles have your full real name because you're not afraid to stand behind your comments.

Mark

1653 posts

Uber Geek

#1260143 16-Mar-2015 12:03

Glassboy: So out of interest, why are people so keen to be nasty about civil servants and members of parliament?

Are you all having a bad day? Do you for some reason feel entitled to not behave with respect towards anyone involved in the government?

I know of course you're all constantly hard working exemplary citizens whose lifes could be lived in a glasshouse, you being so perfect and all. I'm sure all your profiles have your full real name because you're not afraid to stand behind your comments.

People who pay tax (pretty much all of us) like to see it spent on meaningful things .. having tax money spent on ex-MP travel perks (plus other perks) grates a bit, it is after all money being spent that is not bringing in a return.
Company shareholders also feel the same way when a company they have invested in/own spends money on something they feel provides no benefit to the company (which is why some of the big corporates now don't cover travel for CEOs wives/mistresses).

1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5