Mad Butcher

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mattwnz

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#1784731 19-May-2017 13:59

Fred99:

MikeAqua:

Geektastic:

Since I have never seen a label on a packet of mince that states it contains preservative, I presume no one uses it?

You can gas flush meat so it stays red longer. Depending on the gas(es) used it does have a preservative effect.

I'm not sure whether gases used in this way have to be listed as ingredients.

For example bags of sliced apples are packed in nitrogen flushed packaging. This displaces the oxygen and stops them browning, but you won't find nitrogen in the list of ingredients.

It's not the same as MAP, as the function isn't to increase shelf life or modify ripening characteristics as in fruit etc.

The function is solely to make the meat look better than it actually is - and this is actually based on lack of consumer knowledge of what fresh meat looks like, as it's not pink/red unless I expect it was cut up within seconds of slaughter.

IMO it's controversial for good reason, as even if small there is some risk (that it masks food spoilage at least) and no benefit - except for marketing. They should have to disclose it the same way as food colorings.

From my experience, Pac n Save and new world still wrap meat in gladwrap. The only supermarket I have seen that have the sealed ones is countdown, although I have no idea if they are using the gas in the packets or not. Consumers though should be told, so they can make informed choices. The problem is our laws in NZ get dated quickly.. I wouldn't have known about this unless I watch target a few years ago when they were testing the mince in supermarkets and butchers.

Geektastic

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#1784797 19-May-2017 15:46

mattwnz:

Fred99:

MikeAqua:

Geektastic:

Since I have never seen a label on a packet of mince that states it contains preservative, I presume no one uses it?

You can gas flush meat so it stays red longer. Depending on the gas(es) used it does have a preservative effect.

I'm not sure whether gases used in this way have to be listed as ingredients.

For example bags of sliced apples are packed in nitrogen flushed packaging. This displaces the oxygen and stops them browning, but you won't find nitrogen in the list of ingredients.

It's not the same as MAP, as the function isn't to increase shelf life or modify ripening characteristics as in fruit etc.

The function is solely to make the meat look better than it actually is - and this is actually based on lack of consumer knowledge of what fresh meat looks like, as it's not pink/red unless I expect it was cut up within seconds of slaughter.

IMO it's controversial for good reason, as even if small there is some risk (that it masks food spoilage at least) and no benefit - except for marketing. They should have to disclose it the same way as food colorings.

From my experience, Pac n Save and new world still wrap meat in gladwrap. The only supermarket I have seen that have the sealed ones is countdown, although I have no idea if they are using the gas in the packets or not. Consumers though should be told, so they can make informed choices. The problem is our laws in NZ get dated quickly.. I wouldn't have known about this unless I watch target a few years ago when they were testing the mince in supermarkets and butchers.

I agree that they should say on packets what they have done, if anything, when packing the meat.

However I do strongly support moving to sealed packaging for hygiene reasons.

Geektastic

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#1784800 19-May-2017 15:49

Fred99:

mattwnz:

networkn:

dafman:

eracode:

Geektastic: There's no obvious way to tell premium and non premium apart as no shop seems to bother actually putting labelling on minced beef to enable you to make an informed decision.

UK supermarkets put average fat percentage stickers on the packs, so premium might be 5%, normal might be 10% etc.

Most NZ supermarkets do distinguish between Prime and Premium beef mince.

I don't need a label:

Good mince (premium) = red meat

Not so good mince = grey meat.

Actually, mince can be grey and be 100% fine, it's just had oxygen exposure. You'll often find your mince goes that colour in the fridge.

To be fair our mince doesn't last long enough for that though.

Don't some super markets use sealed packaging which contain a gas, to keep meat for longer, and keep it looking pinker. The pink colour vs grey, isn't really the issue to me so much. To me, it is the amount of white in the meat, which is the fat. The cheap grades have more fat. You can cook it to get rid of the fat, as it turns into a liquid, and you can then drain that out, but you are then throwing away a lot of the weight you have paid for.

Not directly linked to mince, but with chicken parts on those meat trays, I had heard that some super markets inject it with water. Apparently this is to stop it drying out. But surely it would also increase the weight a lot. I don't think that sort of thing shouldn't be allowed, unless it is clearly disclosed on the packaging, so consumers have a choice.

I don't know about "some" supermarkets - more like "most" or close to all:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_monoxide#Meat_coloring

Not just mince - they use it with cuts of meat on trays. It's very effective - sliced meat like schnitzel, the outside of the meat slice exposed to the CO in the pack is brighter red than the parts of slices which lapped other slices in the tray. Same with thicker cuts, where they'll be bright red on the outside, darker/duller when you cut it.

Note that the process is banned in Japan and the EU.

Not sure if they inject chicken cuts with water. There's a lot of water used in chicken processing, automated slaughter etc means there's crop contents and poop everywhere which needs cleaning, hence salmonella and campylobacter risk from uncooked / undercooked chicken and cross contamination from chicken "juice". (If you were to carefully home kill and butcher a chicken - it could or should be safe to eat undercooked).

They used to make chicken nuggets by micronizing and chemically stabilising chicken skin etc, then needle-injecting it into the meat as the fat etc softened the meat and stopped it drying out when cooked, thus more palatable to children - who don't matter, apparently. Note that McDonald's claim to not use this process for McNuggets - you're more likely to get that kind of crap in "family packs" of chicken nuggets at the supermarket.

Processed meats like ham, bacon etc, they process it with phosphates and other chemicals to make it bind / hold water. I suspect that there's plenty enough evidence now to consider that these meats should be avoided for health reasons entirely - with possible exception of use as a condiment (ie bacon or salami perhaps on a pizza or whatever). If you're going to limit volume (wise IMO) then probably a good idea to buy smaller quantities of better quality, which not only tastes better, cooks better as it's not full of water, but there's better chance that the animals were free-farmed.

A client of mine wants to make nitrate free bacon in NZ - as was told by MPI that it wasn't legal to do so!

Pumpedd

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#1784808 19-May-2017 16:05

mattwnz:

Fred99:

MikeAqua:

Geektastic:

Since I have never seen a label on a packet of mince that states it contains preservative, I presume no one uses it?

You can gas flush meat so it stays red longer. Depending on the gas(es) used it does have a preservative effect.

I'm not sure whether gases used in this way have to be listed as ingredients.

For example bags of sliced apples are packed in nitrogen flushed packaging. This displaces the oxygen and stops them browning, but you won't find nitrogen in the list of ingredients.

It's not the same as MAP, as the function isn't to increase shelf life or modify ripening characteristics as in fruit etc.

The function is solely to make the meat look better than it actually is - and this is actually based on lack of consumer knowledge of what fresh meat looks like, as it's not pink/red unless I expect it was cut up within seconds of slaughter.

IMO it's controversial for good reason, as even if small there is some risk (that it masks food spoilage at least) and no benefit - except for marketing. They should have to disclose it the same way as food colorings.

From my experience, Pac n Save and new world still wrap meat in gladwrap. The only supermarket I have seen that have the sealed ones is countdown, although I have no idea if they are using the gas in the packets or not. Consumers though should be told, so they can make informed choices. The problem is our laws in NZ get dated quickly.. I wouldn't have known about this unless I watch target a few years ago when they were testing the mince in supermarkets and butchers.

\\Countdown dont seem to have local butchers and "most" of their meat is prepared and packaged in a huge factory in Auckland and shipped to various areas. So its your choice to choose local or choose processed elsewhere.....

Fred99

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#1784906 19-May-2017 18:12

Geektastic:

A client of mine wants to make nitrate free bacon in NZ - as was told by MPI that it wasn't legal to do so!

That doesn't surprise me - but can he call it something else?

I guess without being cured in nitrate/nitrite, then it isn't bacon by definition anyway.

I do recall a dish made by a chef cousin of mine, that was fermented beef - can't remember what it was called. That was just biffed in a bucket with some seasonings - perhaps some booze - until it was truly rank, the rottenest stuff carved off the outside, the presumably safer raw-ish inside meat infused with the flavour of rotting flesh, finely sliced and served in the manner of carpaccio (which it wasn't).

Having witnessed the preparation, I passed on eating the stuff. The punters in his restaurant raved.

He was/is a believer that the human taste bud has evolved with a preference for the selectively "slightly off" taste, hence our liking for cheeses, cured meats etc. Anthropological explanation - we evolved eating carrion - and needed to be able to enjoy dinner - whilst being discerning enough to avoid poisoning ourselves.

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