Online Voting

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#2101481 4-Oct-2018 12:45

I was alluding to the fact that the "representatives" and the party faithful have more influence on the decisions being made than the rest of us. Whilst all our votes are equal, the value of each person's vote is less than the value of (currently) the Labour party heirarchy and MPs.

As well, you don't get to vote on issues you care about. You get to vote for a package deal of whatever Labour+hangers-on offers vs what National+hangers-on offers. If I prefer some elements of Labour's policy and some elements of National's, I cannot effectively express that opinion. Either I vote for the Labour package, and implicitly support some of their policies that I don't like, or I vote for the National package. Even worse, in a coalition world, often aspects of the package aren't decided until after the election.

And, you don't get to vote on things that have changed since the last election. You hope that, when some issue crops up, whoever is in power will do what the majority of the population wants.

You have an overly simplistic view on how to run a country. Imagine the carnage that would ensue if every-time a decision was made you could just vote by logging on. There are consequences for every piece of policy and legislation that gets acted upon. Why you would think average Joe has taken the time to understand, challenge and consider these enough to be the one voting is beyond me..

frankv

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#2101492 4-Oct-2018 13:10

SaltyNZ:

Election tampering is completely different. You may never know an election has been stolen from the country, the consequences of a stolen election could be as dire as the Donald Trump New Zealand Edition(TM), and there's no obvious way to fix it even if you are pretty sure it happened.

This is still looking at an election as a one-off, irreversible event. Like buying a CD instead of listening to Spotify. It doesn't have to be that way.

Imagine if the cost of a referendum was close to zero, and one could be run in a short time frame. In this scenario, a stolen "election" isn't a huge deal. You patch the problem and hold another election next week. If you think that one is fraudulent too, you do the same again. Or maybe you just run an "election" (a bunch of referenda, really, since you won't be electing representatives) every week, regardless. This incidentally means that hacking an election isn't such an attractive proposition; the hackers only get the benefit of it for a week or two, rather than for the next 3-5 years.

There's also no real DTNZE issue. Firstly, you don't really need elections, because, secondly, you no longer need a DT to make decisions on your behalf. Thirdly, since the power is shifted back to the people, the role of leader is no longer attractive to the power-hungry. And, fourthly, if the majority want DTNZE out, he's gone.

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#2101493 4-Oct-2018 13:11

itxtme:

You have an overly simplistic view on how to run a country. Imagine the carnage that would ensue if every-time a decision was made you could just vote by logging on. There are consequences for every piece of policy and legislation that gets acted upon. Why you would think average Joe has taken the time to understand, challenge and consider these enough to be the one voting is beyond me..

That's why I think that a hybrid system is the least-worst of the direct democracy models. It probably already has a fancy name but if so I don't know what. It works like this: the country is divided up into electorates of roughly equal population, and a proportional election is held in each. Each candidate that receives votes in the electorate is sent to parliament holding that number of votes. Suppose there are 100K voters, and four candidates. They receive 51,000, 19,000, 20,000 and 10,000 votes respectively.

When a bill is debated, each MP casts their votes. So the first of our local candidates votes yes - 51,000, and the other three vote no - 49,000 altogether. All the votes from all the MPs are tallied and the result is determined.

However, if I really care specifically about a given bill I can register to vote directly on that bill. I voted for the 20,000 vote candidate, and prefer Yes to No on this issue. So now we have 51,000 (Yes), 19,000 (No), 19,999 (No), 10,000 (No) and 1 (Yes).

Overall I think this system balances the risk of Joe Average making a dumb vote versus some issue where the public feels very strongly - strongly enough to do something about it. It means that if I like 90% of a party's stance, then I can vote directly against them on the other 10%. It does not preclude political parties, and it still works with MMP (you just get 2 votes to retrieve, if you want).

Obviously there would need to be some specifics put in place to ensure we don't end up with 1000 MPs - minimum thresholds being the obvious answer but you could also limit the MPs to one per electorate and use preferential voting to select him/her, which would lead to the candidate being elected who most represents the electorate.

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frankv

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#2101511 4-Oct-2018 13:29

itxtme:

You have an overly simplistic view on how to run a country. Imagine the carnage that would ensue if every-time a decision was made you could just vote by logging on. There are consequences for every piece of policy and legislation that gets acted upon. Why you would think average Joe has taken the time to understand, challenge and consider these enough to be the one voting is beyond me..

Well, yes, I've dumbed the idea down to meet the audience. ;)

This whole idea of "Trust us, it's too complicated for you, so we'll make the decision for you" has been trotted out since time immemorial by people who want to retain (or acquire) power. Kings and Popes and all the rest have essentially used this argument.

One of the benefits of a democracy is that the collective thinking power of the population will make a better decision than that of an oligarchy or a monarch. Maybe every Joe won't understand all the nuances, but collectively they all will. We've sacrificed that thinking power in our representative democracy.

Secondly, I believe that "the average Joe can't understand the issues" is a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you want to make decisions, you limit the information that Joe has so that *he* *can't* make a good decision. And trot out "It's very very complicated...". If Joe can make decisions, he will take the trouble to be informed as to what the issues are and how he will be affected. And the people proposing, and opposing, the change will take the trouble to make sure that Joe has the information he needs.

itxtme

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#2101561 4-Oct-2018 14:04

Frankv I think you have no idea how much work and advice is given to the politician that fronts a policy that is implemented. What you are suggesting is like having the workers set the strategy for a business, and removing the CEO and board.. Good luck with that

MikeAqua

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#2101617 4-Oct-2018 16:27

Do we really want to put the security of our democracy in the hands of the cheapest tenderer?

I can hear Vlad laughing already.

]edit: afterthought - one of the issues I've read about in some of the suffrage articles is postal voting was considered as an option at the time to get more women voting. It was opposed quite strongly because people claimed men would direct heir wives votes.

Online voting has an analogous problem. You don't know the person clicking is actually the registered voter. It's fertile ground for intimidation and corruption]

Mike

MileHighKiwi

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#2101946 5-Oct-2018 09:30

Why does evething have to be digital these days? I enjoy walking to the school on election day with my family and casting my vote. Heck, even on holiday I have made the effort to find a polling booth. If people find that too difficult I'm not these are people I want having a say.

I also like reading real books and newspapers. Maybe I'm just old fashioned.

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Delphinus

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#2102050 5-Oct-2018 10:47

I don't see why it has to be an all or nothing setup. STV elections require paper forms input into a computer to calculate the results anyway. If you want to walk to school on election day with your family and cast your vote then go for it. I however would like the option of doing it online.

tdgeek

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#2102052 5-Oct-2018 10:52

Delphinus:

I don't see why it has to be an all or nothing setup. STV elections require paper forms input into a computer to calculate the results anyway.

That's a good point. Its already done online, so at risk of the vagaries of the insecure internet.

I favour online voting, my only concern is voters being coerced, which at the ballot box you cannot be. But you can also vote online in private if you wish and if coercion is a concern.

SaltyNZ

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#2102062 5-Oct-2018 11:10

tdgeek:

[ Its already done online, so at risk of the vagaries of the insecure internet.

Through a relatively small number of computers that can be issued, secured, controlled and monitored by the relevant authorities which do not have to traverse the public internet, versus 3 million random devices.

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tdgeek

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#2102064 5-Oct-2018 11:15

SaltyNZ:

tdgeek:

[ Its already done online, so at risk of the vagaries of the insecure internet.

Through a relatively small number of computers that can be issued, secured, controlled and monitored by the relevant authorities which do not have to traverse the public internet, versus 3 million random devices.

Fair point, if they never leave the network providers networks, and are not on the internet, public or not. Are you referring to VPN?

sbiddle

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#2102077 5-Oct-2018 11:35

MileHighKiwi: Why does evething have to be digital these days? I enjoy walking to the school on election day with my family and casting my vote. Heck, even on holiday I have made the effort to find a polling booth. If people find that too difficult I'm not these are people I want having a say.

What happens when the me me me me me millennial generation all decide to vote online for the fun of it picking some random person that their friends all talked about on Facebook just for lols? .. And then that person gets elected and are useless?

I know it's not really that different to people voting like sheep for the same GWRC people (maybe they won't now they realise they're all useless), but there are unintended social consequences.

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#2102092 5-Oct-2018 12:04

itxtme:

Frankv I think you have no idea how much work and advice is given to the politician that fronts a policy that is implemented. What you are suggesting is like having the workers set the strategy for a business, and removing the CEO and board.. Good luck with that

Given that the whole point of democracy is that the people of the country get to have a say in their future, why shouldn't "the workers set the strategy for a business"? One huge benefit of direct democracy is that it precludes what you describe, so that biased, probably self-serving, advice can't be given to a few decisionmakers by a few bureaucrats or a powerful clique.

I'm not saying that the CEO and board needs to be removed entirely. Just that they no longer get to set the overall policy... instead, they get to implement and govern the policy that the people select.

And, what can I say, Switzerland has had good luck with that for longer than New Zealand, or indeed the current British Parliamentary system, has existed.

SaltyNZ

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#2102093 5-Oct-2018 12:05

tdgeek:

Fair point, if they never leave the network providers networks, and are not on the internet, public or not. Are you referring to VPN?

Either a VPN or better still a private APN that is plumbed in direct from the carrier to whoever is providing the back-end.

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SaltyNZ

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#2102097 5-Oct-2018 12:16

sbiddle:

What happens when the me me me me me millennial generation all decide to vote online for the fun of it picking some random person that their friends all talked about on Facebook just for lols? .. And then that person gets elected and are useless?

Same as when the Boomers vote for whoever they've been discussing on Facebook, but much better looking.

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