Did Trademe get too greedy?

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Ultimate Geek
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#1051568 23-May-2014 09:48

No, I'm saying trading history is like a persons credit rating and should thus be public and obtainable by a 3rd party if requested.

I'm not sure how this goes against the privacy act. It would work just like credit ratings do today, and that does not seem to breach the privacy act.

The whole trademe monopoly thing is going to come up in future and trademe will need a strategy to address that.

Just like it has come up with sky/telecom.

I don't know the law around credit rating but I imagine that certain information is deemed to be in the public domain to serve a public good.

Basically the Privacy Act means that you can collect and use data for a particular purpose. A person's TradeMe history was collected for the purpose of them using TradeMe. There's no greater public good or national interest to be served by that data being nationalised. What you're suggesting is basically a totalitarian action, and is probably a vote loser.

You also seem to be overlooking that TradeMe has an extensive API (as probably does eBay). It's entirely probable that someone could build an reputation aggregation site that people could opt-in to without any need for the Government to create bad law.

As for Sky and Telecom, market forces have forced far more change than regulation.

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#1051569 23-May-2014 09:49

Glassboy: It seems almost surreal watching people attack TradeMe and talk up Facebook. I'm sure the same people would be up in arms if it came to a discussion about how much tax Facebook pays in New Zealand.

Not knocking Trademe or talking up Facebook.

I've been buying and selling on ebay for 15 years, Trademe for 11.. and many 'free'sites.

Before that – back in the late 90's - I subscribed to many Local and Regional Nickel Traders, Buy & Sells, etc across the US and Canada, Trader in Australia, Trade & Exchange in NZ, Auto, Truck and Equipment magazines.
I noticed the difference when it all moved online - onto my screen - instead of wads of papers arriving each week.

A small business I had relied on the large pricing difference between countries, eg I'd buy a car – say an old convertible, locally in the US, for $1K and resell it in Europe or Australia for $15K.

Ebay changed all that. It allowed Joe public to know market value of things instead of local neighbourhood value.
Take that old car you don't know the value of – and pop it on ebay, it'll reach a price that the - worldwide - market sets, and that value's internationally visible.

The guy who has that business now spends most of his time inspecting vehicles and arranging shipping for people who've seen them on ebay or similar.. rather than profiting from markups.

New Zealand's a special case bacause of it's physical isolation. I'm not surprised ebay didn't move in.
T & E once had the opportunity to take the market but when TM reached critical mass it was too late.
There's still a lot of room to increase prices before there's a consumer rebellion, with plenty of opportunity to move into associated niches like shipping, finance, insurance etc..

I don't use Facebook myself, but I've noticed a trend. Small community markets are springing up. Around the world.
Be interesting to see how it goes.

Edit:grammar

mattwnz

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#1051635 23-May-2014 12:19

Glassboy:
surfisup1000:
Geektastic: eBay could afford to run here for free for a year to attract users if they really wanted to be here. TM would find that hard to compete with I imagine. Along with proper buyer protection etc they'd be hard to beat if they truly wanted to be in NZ

My opinion is that ebay would fail to break into NZ even if they offered 'free' forever.

One of Trademes advantages is the ownership of trader histories. People have spent years building up their reputation and this leads to a reluctance to move to a new provider.

But , why should a traders history belong to trademe? Just as baycorp does not own a persons credit rating!!

Maybe one way to loosen trademes monopoly is for the government to pass a law making trader history public record.

So you're suggesting that the Government creates a law that contravenes the Privacy Act (and probably others) to seize data from a New Zealand company (that has a record as a good corporate citizen and employer), and gives that data to foreign companies who pay little or no tax in New Zealand.

I have heard this suggested before in the media and who actually owns that data. I am not sure if feedback makes trade me sticky. People can quickly build up feedback on a new trading website. The feedback system isn't really that great anyway as it is flawed. As a result I never post negative feedback when I have has a problem because I will then also get negative feedback back. As a result my positive feedback is 100 percent after 500 trades.

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#1051638 23-May-2014 12:30

mattwnz:
I have heard this suggested before in the media and who actually owns that data. I am not sure if feedback makes trade me sticky. People can quickly build up feedback on a new trading website. The feedback system isn't really that great anyway as it is flawed. As a result I never post negative feedback when I have has a problem because I will then also get negative feedback back. As a result my positive feedback is 100 percent after 500 trades.

The feedback system's flawed but still gives a valuable insight into a seller or buyer.

I'd trade with you due to your 500 trouble free trades.

I'd be wary if you had just 30 trades and 10 of them were bad..

Glassboy

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#1051657 23-May-2014 12:49

mattwnz:
Glassboy:

So you're suggesting that the Government creates a law that contravenes the Privacy Act (and probably others) to seize data from a New Zealand company (that has a record as a good corporate citizen and employer), and gives that data to foreign companies who pay little or no tax in New Zealand.

I have heard this suggested before in the media and who actually owns that data. I am not sure if feedback makes trade me sticky. People can quickly build up feedback on a new trading website. The feedback system isn't really that great anyway as it is flawed. As a result I never post negative feedback when I have has a problem because I will then also get negative feedback back. As a result my positive feedback is 100 percent after 500 trades.

Our media unfortunately have a decided political bias and in general a lack of understanding of things like the law and natural justice. In fact many of what are apparently journalists seemed to have turned to infotainment and their own soapboxes. (I found some nes the other day on Stuff, I was very surprised.)

If you wanted to export your data from TradeMe you certainly could through their API, or by scraping the web pages. To my eye they're one of the good guys. They're certainly not Facebook.

As for what you're saying about the feedback system, I don't agree. Your initial poor feedback isn't in anyway a statement of "the truth", which is why the the other party is allowed a right of reply. I have 247 positive, 1 neutral, and 1 negative feedback. If you examine the person who gave me the negative you'll find he has quite a lot of negative feedback. (The neutral feedback comes from someone that turned up in a vehicle far too small to pick up the item even though the auction contained the dimensions and I spoke to them prior to the pick up and suggested they'd need a trailer. Go figure). I'm sure anyone who assesses my reputation sees the 1 negative and 1 neutral as merely noise.

mattwnz

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#1051662 23-May-2014 13:09

Glassboy:
mattwnz:
Glassboy:

So you're suggesting that the Government creates a law that contravenes the Privacy Act (and probably others) to seize data from a New Zealand company (that has a record as a good corporate citizen and employer), and gives that data to foreign companies who pay little or no tax in New Zealand.

I have heard this suggested before in the media and who actually owns that data. I am not sure if feedback makes trade me sticky. People can quickly build up feedback on a new trading website. The feedback system isn't really that great anyway as it is flawed. As a result I never post negative feedback when I have has a problem because I will then also get negative feedback back. As a result my positive feedback is 100 percent after 500 trades.

Our media unfortunately have a decided political bias and in general a lack of understanding of things like the law and natural justice. In fact many of what are apparently journalists seemed to have turned to infotainment and their own soapboxes. (I found some nes the other day on Stuff, I was very surprised.)

If you wanted to export your data from TradeMe you certainly could through their API, or by scraping the web pages. To my eye they're one of the good guys. They're certainly not Facebook.

As for what you're saying about the feedback system, I don't agree. Your initial poor feedback isn't in anyway a statement of "the truth", which is why the the other party is allowed a right of reply. I have 247 positive, 1 neutral, and 1 negative feedback. If you examine the person who gave me the negative you'll find he has quite a lot of negative feedback. (The neutral feedback comes from someone that turned up in a vehicle far too small to pick up the item even though the auction contained the dimensions and I spoke to them prior to the pick up and suggested they'd need a trailer. Go figure). I'm sure anyone who assesses my reputation sees the 1 negative and 1 neutral as merely noise.

Yes , but because of that negative feedback, you are rated below 100 percent. Also someone who you have a problem with, and posts a negative feedback in response to a negative one isn't necessarily going to have a lot of other bad feedback. I think they are better to have a feedback health ranking, which essentially ignores someone who already has heaps of negative feedback, from the overall rating. So instead of having a number, they could have a gauge which isn't affected by a bad trader posting a negative feedback. With the current system a lot of people just don't post negative feedback, because they don't want to affect their clean record, but this could be solved using a gauge.

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#1051666 23-May-2014 13:21

surfisup1000:
Geektastic: eBay could afford to run here for free for a year to attract users if they really wanted to be here. TM would find that hard to compete with I imagine. Along with proper buyer protection etc they'd be hard to beat if they truly wanted to be in NZ

My opinion is that ebay would fail to break into NZ even if they offered 'free' forever.

One of Trademes advantages is the ownership of trader histories. People have spent years building up their reputation and this leads to a reluctance to move to a new provider.

But , why should a traders history belong to trademe? Just as baycorp does not own a persons credit rating!!

Maybe one way to loosen trademes monopoly is for the government to pass a law making trader history public record.

Sella had free listings, ran for a few years and even they didn't manage to make a dent in Trade Me's stronghold. This to me shows that despite all the noise about price, people still think it's a valuable platform to use and that another platform simply being free doesn't make it work switching to.

Member feedback ratings on Trade Me are publicly available info. There is nothing stopping a trader on another site say linking to their Trade Me profile to prove their rating/trustworthiness.

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Glassboy

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#1051669 23-May-2014 13:26

mattwnz:

Yes , but because of that negative feedback, you are rated below 100 percent. Also someone who you have a problem with, and posts a negative feedback in response to a negative one isn't necessarily going to have a lot of other bad feedback. I think they are better to have a feedback health ranking, which essentially ignores someone who already has heaps of negative feedback, from the overall rating. So instead of having a number, they could have a gauge which isn't affected by a bad trader posting a negative feedback. With the current system a lot of people just don't post negative feedback, because they don't want to affect their clean record, but this could be solved using a gauge.

You're missing the point. A basic premise of natural justice and our law is innocent until proven guilty. Just because you have given someone negative feedback doesn't make them a "bad trader". Through an unbiased lense you are no more or less of an idiot than the other person. You may be judge and jury in your own mind, but you really aren't.

The closest thing to bad traders are those people who TradeMe establishes to be acting poorly and disables or bans.

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#1051683 23-May-2014 13:35

Ebay's chosen to let Sellers only leave positive ratings for buyers.

That's so buyers will "leave honest Feedback without fear of retaliation".

I prefer trademe's system.

mattwnz

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#1051690 23-May-2014 13:44

Glassboy:
mattwnz:

Yes , but because of that negative feedback, you are rated below 100 percent. Also someone who you have a problem with, and posts a negative feedback in response to a negative one isn't necessarily going to have a lot of other bad feedback. I think they are better to have a feedback health ranking, which essentially ignores someone who already has heaps of negative feedback, from the overall rating. So instead of having a number, they could have a gauge which isn't affected by a bad trader posting a negative feedback. With the current system a lot of people just don't post negative feedback, because they don't want to affect their clean record, but this could be solved using a gauge.

You're missing the point. A basic premise of natural justice and our law is innocent until proven guilty. Just because you have given someone negative feedback doesn't make them a "bad trader". Through an unbiased lense you are no more or less of an idiot than the other person. You may be judge and jury in your own mind, but you really aren't.

The closest thing to bad traders are those people who TradeMe establishes to be acting poorly and disables or bans.

I am really talking about impressions that having negative feedback gives to a third party. if I look at buying from someone with less than 100 percent feedback, I will look at the feedback that that that person has received and will see if it sounds justified or not, and will decide to trade with them based on that. Sometimes what is posted is quite enlightening. even a single negative feedback could sway me not to trade with them if I think it doesn't reflect well n the trader. Where as someone with 100 percent positive feedback and they have completed at least 10 trades, I wouldn't have any hesitation trading. Possibly it is partly psychological but I have observed other people doing this too when someone doesn't have 100 percent positive feedback.

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#1051710 23-May-2014 13:59

mattwnz:
I am really talking about impressions that having negative feedback gives to a third party. if I look at buying from someone with less than 100 percent feedback, I will look at the feedback that that that person has received and will see if it sounds justified or not, and will decide to trade with them based on that. Sometimes what is posted is quite enlightening. even a single negative feedback could sway me not to trade with them if I think it doesn't reflect well n the trader. Where as someone with 100 percent positive feedback and they have completed at least 10 trades, I wouldn't have any hesitation trading. Possibly it is partly psychological but I have observed other people doing this too when someone doesn't have 100 percent positive feedback.

It's pretty easy to get away with 100% feedback if you've only got 10 trades.

Once you reach 500 or 1000 there's far more chance you've come across that one insane person or total idiot you can't reason with, who's determined to give you a sad face no matter what..

If someone has 500 trades with 499 positive I'd regard it the same as 100%

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Glassboy

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#1051778 23-May-2014 16:08

mattwnz:

I am really talking about impressions that having negative feedback gives to a third party. if I look at buying from someone with less than 100 percent feedback, I will look at the feedback that that that person has received and will see if it sounds justified or not, and will decide to trade with them based on that. Sometimes what is posted is quite enlightening. even a single negative feedback could sway me not to trade with them if I think it doesn't reflect well n the trader. Where as someone with 100 percent positive feedback and they have completed at least 10 trades, I wouldn't have any hesitation trading. Possibly it is partly psychological but I have observed other people doing this too when someone doesn't have 100 percent positive feedback.

You seem to be complaining that a system is working.

kiwirock

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#1051781 23-May-2014 16:22

Does Fairfax still own them? They're in debt so they'd be looking for a buck or too.

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#1051799 23-May-2014 16:40

kiwirock: Does Fairfax still own them? They're in debt so they'd be looking for a buck or too.

Fairfax floated them on the sharemarket then sold down their share after their own creditors started circling. Don't think they have much/any holding any more

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#1051807 23-May-2014 17:11

Their fees have gotten to the point where I will only use them as an avenue of last resort to sell anything. Taking into account the fees and difficulty of some of the people you often end up dealing with, sometimes it's easier to just give things away and/or throw them out.

Competition would be good, but TM are too firmly entrenched. Maybe if eBay launched a proper NZ site, although their UI is horrendous.

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