Pffffttttt!!! Who needs mass surveillance to find terrorists!

Forums › Off topic › Pffffttttt!!! Who needs mass surveillance to find terrorists!

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Ultimate Geek
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#1210617 8-Jan-2015 15:10

networkn:
heylinb4nz:
KiwiNZ:
heylinb4nz:
KiwiNZ:
heylinb4nz: You know what would have the biggest impact of all, it would be easy to legislate and enforce + cheap...but our soft government and bleeding heart liberals would not stomach it.

a) kick all muslims \ refugees out of NZ
b) tear down all Mosques
c) allow only certain approved nationality's to enter NZ

Sure the majority will be peaceful good law abiding people, but if Terrorism is serious then there will need to be sacrifices made.

Far better solution that spying on people.

Racism and bigotry is NOT the answer.

It may not be the right answer in a civil society, but as shown we aren't dealing with civil people, you cant deny that it would have greater immediate effect than simply passing some spying laws. Perhaps the reason society is so behind the 8 ball on terrorism is because we are all too afraid to take the gloves off.

Your ideas are disgraceful

So is the idea of wholesaling a nations rights away to a corrupt government in the name of safety.

I can't tolerate any more of your nonsense, I'm out.

Bye bye :)

heylinb4nz

656 posts

Ultimate Geek
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#1210620 8-Jan-2015 15:12

KiwiNZ:
heylinb4nz:
gzt:
heylinb4nz: You know what would have the biggest impact of all, it would be easy to legislate and enforce + cheap...but our soft government and bleeding heart liberals would not stomach it.

a) kick all muslims \ refugees out of NZ
b) tear down all Mosques
c) allow only certain approved nationality's to enter NZ

Sure the majority will be peaceful good law abiding people, but if Terrorism is serious then there will need to be sacrifices made.

Far better solution that spying on people.

The terrorists want you to believe they are the legitimate representatives of Muslims everywhere. It looks like you are falling for it hook line and sinker.

I find it more laughable that people are tricked by their own government and fall for their BS hook line and sinker.

Hands up here who has read the Quran or parts of it in detail ? a Christianity (The Bible) had a Renaissance (New Testament) and is relatively tame compared to Quran teachings which are more along the lines of Old Testament combined with a Political Ideolgy. Cutting bits out and only following bits is not being true to your religion so essentially peaceful Muslims are not being true to the teachings of Mohammed. I wonder for every 100 people that study it, how many take on board some if not all of the true teachings ?

Said my bit, heads back in the sand all.

words fail me.

Feel free to retort with alternative views. That what this thread is for.

roobarb

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#1210624 8-Jan-2015 15:16

frankv: I wonder if its worth spending some effort on finding out what they want, why they believe its unachievable without death and destruction, and then changing their minds?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_State_of_Iraq_and_the_Levant#Goals

Have you been able to change the mind of a door to door evangelist?

heylinb4nz

656 posts

Ultimate Geek
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#1210626 8-Jan-2015 15:20

frankv: I wonder what the chance of being killed/injured by someone actually for real insane actually is?

Because I don't buy that all the terrorists and suicide bombers are really insane. My view is that generally these people have taken a rational decision that it is better for the general good for them to lose their lives to make a change. i.e. they believe that there is no way to make that change, without people getting killed.

I wonder if its worth spending some effort on finding out what they want, why they believe its unachievable without death and destruction, and then changing their minds?

3 possible reasons and either way its all bad for civilized world

1) Quran translates to "submission", unless you convert to Islam you are not one with Allah..all non believers must convert or die.

2) the usual drivers for humans (money, power, control)

3) all of the above

This of course requires a fair amount of death, destruction and human suffering.

What makes it more scary is its an ideology which in this day and age of information and social media influence is alot harder to control than simply hoarding up your borders (or passing some spy laws).

Time will tell which way it will all go...we are certainly in an interesting and critical time of human history.

MikeB4

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#1210627 8-Jan-2015 15:20

roobarb:
frankv: I wonder if its worth spending some effort on finding out what they want, why they believe its unachievable without death and destruction, and then changing their minds?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_State_of_Iraq_and_the_Levant#Goals

Have you been able to change the mind of a door to door evangelist?

I don't try, I politely tell them that their religion is not mine and bid them farewell.

gzt

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#1210640 8-Jan-2015 15:46

heylinb4nz:
gzt:
heylinb4nz: You know what would have the biggest impact of all, it would be easy to legislate and enforce + cheap...but our soft government and bleeding heart liberals would not stomach it.

a) kick all muslims \ refugees out of NZ
b) tear down all Mosques
c) allow only certain approved nationality's to enter NZ

Sure the majority will be peaceful good law abiding people, but if Terrorism is serious then there will need to be sacrifices made.

Far better solution that spying on people.

The terrorists want you to believe they are the legitimate representatives of Muslims everywhere. It looks like you are falling for it hook line and sinker.

I find it more laughable that people are tricked by their own government and fall for their BS hook line and sinker.

Hands up here who has read the Quran or parts of it in detail ? a Christianity (The Bible) had a Renaissance (New Testament) and is relatively tame compared to Quran teachings which are more along the lines of Old Testament combined with a Political Ideolgy. Cutting bits out and only following bits is not being true to your religion so essentially peaceful Muslims are not being true to the teachings of Mohammed. I wonder for every 100 people that study it, how many take on board some if not all of the true teachings ?

Said my bit, heads back in the sand all.

If you have decided to or want to do bad things you can find plenty of bad stuff in the bible (like many religious works) to support your self chosen bad actions. Claiming the Quran is the source of all bad actions is just as silly as claiming the same for the bible.

heylinb4nz

656 posts

Ultimate Geek
Inactive user

#1210642 8-Jan-2015 15:52

gzt:
heylinb4nz:
gzt:
heylinb4nz: You know what would have the biggest impact of all, it would be easy to legislate and enforce + cheap...but our soft government and bleeding heart liberals would not stomach it.

a) kick all muslims \ refugees out of NZ
b) tear down all Mosques
c) allow only certain approved nationality's to enter NZ

Sure the majority will be peaceful good law abiding people, but if Terrorism is serious then there will need to be sacrifices made.

Far better solution that spying on people.

The terrorists want you to believe they are the legitimate representatives of Muslims everywhere. It looks like you are falling for it hook line and sinker.

I find it more laughable that people are tricked by their own government and fall for their BS hook line and sinker.

Hands up here who has read the Quran or parts of it in detail ? a Christianity (The Bible) had a Renaissance (New Testament) and is relatively tame compared to Quran teachings which are more along the lines of Old Testament combined with a Political Ideolgy. Cutting bits out and only following bits is not being true to your religion so essentially peaceful Muslims are not being true to the teachings of Mohammed. I wonder for every 100 people that study it, how many take on board some if not all of the true teachings ?

Said my bit, heads back in the sand all.

If you have decided to or want to do bad things you can find plenty of bad stuff in the bible (like many religious works) to support your self chosen bad actions. Claiming the Quran is the source of all bad actions is just as silly as claiming the same for the bible.

Mans lust for money, power and control is the leading cause of bad actions, with religion among other things being used as a tool to achieve it. We really are screwed..mandkind that is...arent we.

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Batman

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#1210658 8-Jan-2015 16:33

frankv: I wonder what the chance of being killed/injured by someone actually for real insane actually is?

Because I don't buy that all the terrorists and suicide bombers are really insane. My view is that generally these people have taken a rational decision that it is better for the general good for them to lose their lives to make a change. i.e. they believe that there is no way to make that change, without people getting killed.

I wonder if its worth spending some effort on finding out what they want, why they believe its unachievable without death and destruction, and then changing their minds?

They all start rational. Then it gets to the point of no return. Some of them you can rationalise and they actually fear for their lives and want to quit. But you are likely to be killed by the rest of them.

So. ... NO

Batman

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#1210667 8-Jan-2015 16:37

heylinb4nz:
gzt:
heylinb4nz: You know what would have the biggest impact of all, it would be easy to legislate and enforce + cheap...but our soft government and bleeding heart liberals would not stomach it.

a) kick all muslims \ refugees out of NZ
b) tear down all Mosques
c) allow only certain approved nationality's to enter NZ

Sure the majority will be peaceful good law abiding people, but if Terrorism is serious then there will need to be sacrifices made.

Far better solution that spying on people.

The terrorists want you to believe they are the legitimate representatives of Muslims everywhere. It looks like you are falling for it hook line and sinker.

I find it more laughable that people are tricked by their own government and fall for their BS hook line and sinker.

Hands up here who has read the Quran or parts of it in detail ? a Christianity (The Bible) had a Renaissance (New Testament) and is relatively tame compared to Quran teachings which are more along the lines of Old Testament combined with a Political Ideolgy. Cutting bits out and only following bits is not being true to your religion so essentially peaceful Muslims are not being true to the teachings of Mohammed. I wonder for every 100 people that study it, how many take on board some if not all of the true teachings ?

Said my bit, heads back in the sand all.

You pick up a dieting book, 500 pages.

You read and follow every single instruction? That's madness. In a way, religious.

You read and follow a few points, where possible, especially if ratIonalise to be important. That's post modernism.

In terms of the Quran and the bible, It's not possible to doo every single thing. There is one good reason why. Because many many many things asked of you are exact opposite/contradictory. I won't name any, because people can find out if they want.

heylinb4nz

656 posts

Ultimate Geek
Inactive user

#1210672 8-Jan-2015 16:49

joker97:
heylinb4nz:
gzt:
heylinb4nz: You know what would have the biggest impact of all, it would be easy to legislate and enforce + cheap...but our soft government and bleeding heart liberals would not stomach it.

a) kick all muslims \ refugees out of NZ
b) tear down all Mosques
c) allow only certain approved nationality's to enter NZ

Sure the majority will be peaceful good law abiding people, but if Terrorism is serious then there will need to be sacrifices made.

Far better solution that spying on people.

The terrorists want you to believe they are the legitimate representatives of Muslims everywhere. It looks like you are falling for it hook line and sinker.

I find it more laughable that people are tricked by their own government and fall for their BS hook line and sinker.

Hands up here who has read the Quran or parts of it in detail ? a Christianity (The Bible) had a Renaissance (New Testament) and is relatively tame compared to Quran teachings which are more along the lines of Old Testament combined with a Political Ideolgy. Cutting bits out and only following bits is not being true to your religion so essentially peaceful Muslims are not being true to the teachings of Mohammed. I wonder for every 100 people that study it, how many take on board some if not all of the true teachings ?

Said my bit, heads back in the sand all.

You pick up a dieting book, 500 pages.

You read and follow every single instruction? That's madness. In a way, religious.

You read and follow a few points, where possible, especially if ratIonalise to be important. That's post modernism.

In terms of the Quran and the bible, It's not possible to doo every single thing. There is one good reason why. Because many many many things asked of you are exact opposite/contradictory. I won't name any, because people can find out if they want.

Old testament contradictions aside, The 10 commandments are pretty darn clear.

The Quran on the other hand does contain many contradictions thus it comes down to the nature of the person who studies it how it is followed...and man being man...well we know how he rolls. Laid back refugee living new life in New Zealand will follow different to someone in Middle east living under fear of Taliban or with hatred for west. One of those groups are getting larger.

Mark

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#1210685 8-Jan-2015 17:00

Well this light hearted thread I started has taken a bit of a nose dive.

MikeB4

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#1210687 8-Jan-2015 17:03

Mark: Well this light hearted thread I started has taken a bit of a nose dive.

I have to agree, I guess in light of recent events it is a touchy subject.

Geektastic

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#1210688 8-Jan-2015 17:03

freitasm: They have lots of amateur videos from smartphones, security videos, etc. They have the original car plates and can find it was stolen or belonged to someone and trace that. They can use fingerprints in the cars. They get all this, plus a face identification routine and find the culprits. It's called investigative work.

If they had previous surveillance in place then it obviously failed to prevent the attack.

So in this context of new laws your argument is invalid. They are using what they already have.

It was done too fast for that kind of PC Plod legwork IMV.

I'd say that the terrorists were on a list somewhere and that facial recognition from CCTV was a key player.

freitasm

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Geekzone

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#1210692 8-Jan-2015 17:26

"The brothers were born in Paris of Algerian descent. Cherif was sentenced to three years in prison on terrorism charges in May 2008. Both brothers returned from Syria this summer."

Once again, the existing structure fails. One of the suspects is known to the police, exactly like the Sydney shooter. Again, this person was in prison and this was even charged with terrorism before. Some failed at doing their jobs, which should be to keep an eye on the usual suspects.

MrJonathanNZ

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#1210694 8-Jan-2015 17:29

The system works guys, we just need to wait for it to work.......

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