learnt from overseas media we are not letting Aussie nuclear sub in

Forums › Off topic › learnt from overseas media we are not letting Aussie nuclear sub in

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Master Geek
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#2780457 18-Sep-2021 19:59

Handle9: There is certainly no consensus to change the status quo. Therefore it is, and will remain, NZ policy and law for the foreseeable future.

Yes, I think I said that too. It's politically unpalatable and at the present time there's no good reason to, as there are no nuclear powered vessels that wish to visit, and no plan to build a nuclear power plant in NZ.

Handle9:
In 2008 there was clear consensus around the current policy. You have no evidence that that has changed.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/fifth-of-nzers-polled-say-nuclear-power-viable/UVY532YDQWWKNIBVFZIAZWIB5M/

That article doesn't say what you think:

"Nineteen percent of 3546 polled in a New Zealand Business Council for Sustainable Development internet survey said nuclear power was the best electricity option for the next 10 years."

I'm not sure how you translate that into a consensus that NZ should have a ban on nuclear power.

Having said that, as I said further above, whilst scientifically it's pretty much agreed that the risks of nuclear power are managed, and in general lower than the risks of, say, all that coal we import, it's politically not agreed. As with plenty of other topics, scientists agreeing on something doesn't mean the general population agree. In that category we can include GMO, climate change, vaccinations, fluoridation of water supplies, and nuclear power. if you extend only a little bit, you can also talk about the economic consensus on the badness of things like printing money.

Fred99

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#2780488 18-Sep-2021 23:35

PaulL:

That article doesn't say what you think:

"Nineteen percent of 3546 polled in a New Zealand Business Council for Sustainable Development internet survey said nuclear power was the best electricity option for the next 10 years."

I'm not sure how you translate that into a consensus that NZ should have a ban on nuclear power.

As an "internet survey" conducted 13 years ago, I'm not sure how it could be indicative of anything of practical use at all.

cshwone

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#2780506 19-Sep-2021 06:36

MikeB4:

Subs like tanks, surface ships, aircraft carriers are big slow moving targets that are easily tracked.

MikeB4.

You just don't know how wrong you are.

MikeB4

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#2780520 19-Sep-2021 08:04

cshwone:
MikeB4:

Subs like tanks, surface ships, aircraft carriers are big slow moving targets that are easily tracked.

MikeB4.

You just don't know how wrong you are.

If you say so

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

cshwone

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#2780521 19-Sep-2021 08:12

Think of it this way with Microsoft Minesweeper and a 1000 x 1000 martix where you can only uncover one box at a time to find your target. And the target is continually moving so can easily end up never being found. And that's just to find it. If you do manage it then you have to hang onto the contact to be able to track it against maneuvers, decoys, changing water conditions etc.

Submarines have always been difficult to detect, never mind localise and track and that is as true today as it always has been. BTW my credentials are nearly 30 years experience in Anti-Submarine Warfare (ASW) and now blissfully retired.

Fred99

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#2780524 19-Sep-2021 08:22

cshwone:

MikeB4:

Subs like tanks, surface ships, aircraft carriers are big slow moving targets that are easily tracked.

MikeB4.

You just don't know how wrong you are.

True. Will be very interesting to see if that holds up in 25 years when these Aussie subs are operational. I'd guess that by then they'll be far more easily tracked remotely. Worse for submariners, I'd expect that things like anti-submarine AI submarine drones could be deployed for defence, kind of like the mines used in WW2 etc except rather than sitting around waiting for a sub to accidentally bump into them, they'd be able to unleash themselves from parking spots in the ocean - or be dropped by the hundreds from planes in the area that needed to be defended.

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MikeB4

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#2780525 19-Sep-2021 08:27

The main point in all this BS is you have one wannabe state and two states in decline wanting to be the big boys in the school grounds with 20th century stupidity. They are ramping up tensions globally to play their stupid games

Personally I would prefer Aotearoa declared its self a neutral state and told these three to go jump.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

Dingbatt

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#2780528 19-Sep-2021 08:41

MikeB4: They are ramping up tensions globally to play their stupid games

Like building artificial islands in the South China Sea you mean?

“We’ve arranged a society based on science and technology, in which nobody understands anything about science technology. Carl Sagan 1996

Bung

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#2780535 19-Sep-2021 08:56

PaulL:
That article doesn't say what you think:

"Nineteen percent of 3546 polled in a New Zealand Business Council for Sustainable Development internet survey said nuclear power was the best electricity option for the next 10 years."

I'm not sure how you translate that into a consensus that NZ should have a ban on nuclear power.

Did you miss this quote from the CEO of the Business Council

"Mr Neilson said the country's anti-nuclear stance made up a large part of the national identity and despite 19 per cent of respondents being in favour of a nuclear, over 80 per cent were still opposed."

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#2780536 19-Sep-2021 08:56

Dingbatt:

MikeB4: They are ramping up tensions globally to play their stupid games

Like building artificial islands in the South China Sea you mean?

technically i think they occupy islands that supposedly belong to other countries (by virtue of distance from those countries) and start building military bases and extend the land area.

technically i don't think you can build artificial islands in a deep sea

MikeB4

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#2780542 19-Sep-2021 09:25

Dingbatt:

Like building artificial islands in the South China Sea you mean?

Or having bases around the globe in close proximity to perceived enemies, e.g Guam. Sending combat fleets through the South China Seas. Holding war games(a good name for this nonsense) close to perceived enemies etc etc etc.

The US is butt hurt at the economic threat of China. The US must at all times have an enemy to produce a demand for its arms industry at the cost of lives many many kilometres away from home.

The British they are just so in decline they are desperate to return to some bit of Rule Britannia and the Australians, correction Scott Morrison is just plain desperate.

They are risking all of us to play this dangerous game.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

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Dingbatt

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#2780647 19-Sep-2021 14:31

I assume you were round in the days of the Cold War?

Nothing has changed and none of the big players are blameless. Unless you’re saying Russia, China, Iran, etc are victims of western imperialism in the current climate?

It wouldn’t matter what NZ does because we don’t matter.

“We’ve arranged a society based on science and technology, in which nobody understands anything about science technology. Carl Sagan 1996

MikeB4

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#2780651 19-Sep-2021 14:42

Other than the Cuban missile crisis how many bases has China and Russia established on the US border? Iran has been a "victim of US meddling in their internal affairs since WW2. I am not saying China, Russia and Iran are innocent the stupidity is equally spread. In my opinion the current US paranoia is a result of China's financial growth and the strength of their economy.The alleged military thread is being generated to justify the US actions and provocations.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

PaulL

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Master Geek
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#2780766 19-Sep-2021 19:27

MikeB4:

Other than the Cuban missile crisis how many bases has China and Russia established on the US border? Iran has been a "victim of US meddling in their internal affairs since WW2. I am not saying China, Russia and Iran are innocent the stupidity is equally spread. In my opinion the current US paranoia is a result of China's financial growth and the strength of their economy.The alleged military thread is being generated to justify the US actions and provocations.

That's an interesting perspective.

I would have thought that China's stated intention to take over Taiwan by force if necessary, and demonstrated occupation of other countries territorial waters might be matters of concern for any country with limited defences of their own, and large territorial waters. Who will come to our assistance if China decides to start fishing in the Kermadecs?

There's also the matter of China's treatment of the Uighurs, which nobody concerned with human rights should be turning a blind eye to.

I don't really believe that it's possible to just stand aside and pretend to be neutral. The developments in East Asia will impact us all.

neb

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#2780784 19-Sep-2021 19:58

Dingbatt:
Nothing has changed and none of the big players are blameless. Unless you’re saying Russia, China, Iran, etc are victims of western imperialism in the current climate?

For most of the 20th century Iran was the punching-bag of western (UK and later USA) imperialism. Dulles, the head of the CIA, actually bragged in an interview about how cheap it was to overthrow the democratically-elected, reform-minded PM of Iran and replace him with a brutal dictator who would do whatever the US wanted. Having the CIA and later Israel train the SAVAK death squads the Shah used to remain in power didn't exactly endear them to the average Iranian.

Before that, in the 19th century, it was China's turn, when the UK ran the world's largest drug empire and periodically invaded China when their drug trade was threatened.

You can see why they'd have a bit of a chip on their shoulders about the way they've been treated in the past, and why they dislike particular countries...

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