Future of POTS only copper

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RedactedRetracted

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#289952 11-Oct-2021 20:04

Based on the maps at gis.geek, it seems like there's a pretty significant quantity of copper services that are essentially POTS only. With Spark withdrawing POTS services, would these runs be effective, despite the fact Chorus is unable to remove the copper from many of these runs (as many of them are rural without fibre access), would this potentially lead to a situation where Chorus is still forced to maintain the copper despite there being no services accessible through it? Spark's website is rather vague on whether there will be any copper services going forward outside of fibre areas.

Zeusssy

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#2793485 11-Oct-2021 21:19

My understanding in situations where copper is the ONLY solution, Chorus will keep maintaining the network and the NEAX being removed will already be swapped out to CCN/BBIP before the NEAX removal.
The POTS/NEAX removal by Spark is separate from the Chorus copper removal. I'm also almost certain that its written into the withdrawal code that there must be an alternate before any copper uplift happens.

When finally all copper services are removed from a cabinet however, then Chorus will jump at the chance to remove some more copper but again, that's after an alternate is available.
In your example of a rural area (no fibre) then there will still be xDSL and voice services active, and so still reason to keep copper running and Chorus will keep fixing them as needed.

In short yes, Spark and multiple others will continue to provide copper services in areas that are not fibre fed. It just wont be POTS anymore. There was a good thread about it on here years ago explaining the change but I cant find it right now sorry.

RedactedRetracted

96 posts

Master Geek

#2793510 11-Oct-2021 23:13

Zeusssy:

In short yes, Spark and multiple others will continue to provide copper services in areas that are not fibre fed. It just wont be POTS anymore. There was a good thread about it on here years ago explaining the change but I cant find it right now sorry.

So from my understanding that would mean areas currently served by xDSL would continue to be served by it, but it doesn't seem like the solutions you mentioned would allow copper that isn't capable of xDSL to continue to have services, unless I'm missing something?

SomeoneSomewhere

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#2793512 11-Oct-2021 23:58

Chorus sticks what's essentially an ATA in the cabinet/exchange, next to the DSL equipment that may or may or not be there. Conventional phone signals still go down the same copper, they're just coming from a 2010s bridge to IP, rather than a 1980s NEAX.

This allows the customer to still have a plain telephone connection coming out the wall, with all the emergency power, A-D converters still at the exchange.

The phone company gets a SIP trunk from Chorus instead of renting a NEAX port from Spark.

Zeusssy

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#2793514 12-Oct-2021 00:19

Exactly as advised above, instead of getting the NEAX port from Spark for POTS the service is delivered to an ISAM(if your RSP offers it) where you are then allocated a port with your sip trunk. Last mile still being the same copper it was on POTS, but just now digitalised at cabinet and fed back to whatever system your RSP uses as a then IP based service

nztim

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#2793530 12-Oct-2021 07:43

The problem is almost all RSPs wont utilize BBIP because they want to reduce their input costs to chorus, and would rather stick VOIP on the end of the worst DSL 2mbps xdsl than use BBIP/ISAMV or if they can avoid paying chorus alltogther and put them on 4G

there are a few exceptions, Slingshot, NOWNZ, and @myfullflavour who will offer it if a customer wants it

Remember the 111 code still comes into play here for vulnerable customers which states the RSP must either use BBIP or buy and maintain a UPS for the vulnerable customer

Any views expressed on these forums are my own and don't necessarily reflect those of my employer.

myfullflavour

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#2797065 18-Oct-2021 13:33

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's my understanding Spark will continue to offer POTS Voice in non-UFB areas (and that they are using Chorus BBIP as an input to that product)?

When I pop in my parents address (rural Matamata area) into the Spark service checker, they're still offered ADSL + POTS Voice for an extra $10.

Zeusssy

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#2797069 18-Oct-2021 13:36

They will offer copper voice, yes. But it’s no longer POTS as you said.

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atomeara

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#2797153 18-Oct-2021 15:28

This topic gets a bit complicated

To keep it simple I am going to disregard any current or future UFB 1/2/2+ areas, as there are different rules for these areas.

In rural areas outside UFB coverage Chorus can not withdrawal copper lines.
Rural areas generally can be made up of 2 classifications

Broadband enabled cabinets which run Nokia ISAMs (Conklins and Nokia ASAMs are all gone as of a couple of years ago)
and non broadband cabinets including PCM, CMAR and countryset and a large array of things they maybe better suited to MOTAT than being in use today.

The Nokia ISAMs offer both broadband (ADSL 2+ and where on fibre backhaul VDSL) and can offer Baseband IP, not all of them have Baseband IP cards installed. Baseband IP is basically a ATA/FXS/analogue line to SIP card, giving your standard dial tone down the copper line, broadband can sit on top of this.

Spark is shutting down the PSTN/POTS/NEAX network everywhere. Many of these customers are getting moved to Baseband IP (with Chorus installing Baseband IP cards where needed). Some ISPs will run it over the broadband service such as Vodafone, using the ATA ports on the back of there router/modem for example.

In areas with non broadband cabinets nothing is really changing, Chorus owns (as part of the 2011 separation from then Telecom / now Spark) all the PCM, CMAR and countryset hardware in rural areas.
I don't actually know what this goes back to or how it works with the rest of the network but it will need to keep going.

I have no idea what this looks like from a RSP point of view either, how or what they order and from who.

Chorus have converted a handful of these old cabinets to Nokia IASMs in the last 12 months but I think this is under 10.
I have no idea what there long term plan is for them.
There uneconomic in many cases but they are regulated to provide service and will need some kind of hardware refresh at some stage in the future. I suspect there hoping people move off landlines and onto mobile as coverage improves, however that is likely to still leave the many more rural areas with only copper lines.

The latest update from Chorus last week for Q1 FY22 has about 34,000 non UFB area with non broadband lines (voice only) - this is down from 44,000 2 years earlier
Non UFB areas with copper broadband has gone from 154k to 149k so a very small drop.

When you compare that over the same time period for all non broadband lines 201k to 127k, you can see most of the drop is in UFB areas, for variety of reasons (moving to fibre, moving to fixed wireless, copper withdrawal, PSTN withdrawal)

BarTender

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#2797288 18-Oct-2021 19:12

A few years ago when I knew something the plan was to move to eDMR radio links where fibre isn’t economical. I thought the plan was to move everything to ISAMs as Spark planned to shutdown the ATM network as the gear is getting very old and spares are getting hard to source. I suspect covid may have derailed some of it but Spark really want to get rid of the NEAXs and moving to the VoIP core.

hio77

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Lizard Networks

#2797290 18-Oct-2021 19:19

BarTender: A few years ago when I knew something the plan was to move to eDMR radio links where fibre isn’t economical. I thought the plan was to move everything to ISAMs as Spark planned to shutdown the ATM network as the gear is getting very old and spares are getting hard to source. I suspect covid may have derailed some of it but Spark really want to get rid of the NEAXs and moving to the VoIP core.

There sure is some bliss to not really having to think about ATM anymore ;)

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nztim

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#2797384 18-Oct-2021 21:47

BarTender: I suspect covid may have derailed some of it but Spark really want to get rid of the NEAXs and moving to the VoIP core.

I was three years old when the first NEAX went live

Any views expressed on these forums are my own and don't necessarily reflect those of my employer.

atomeara

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Ultimate Geek

#2797848 19-Oct-2021 20:59

BarTender: A few years ago when I knew something the plan was to move to eDMR radio links where fibre isn’t economical. I thought the plan was to move everything to ISAMs as Spark planned to shutdown the ATM network as the gear is getting very old and spares are getting hard to source. I suspect covid may have derailed some of it but Spark really want to get rid of the NEAXs and moving to the VoIP core.

The upgraded all the broadband cabinets to ISAMS. The ATM network, BUBA, Conklins and ASAMs all gone.

However a number of rural broadband cabinets are still on legacy backhaul, using original eDMR or bonded E1 lines still.

I haven't seen them make a start on any of the legacy voice only hardware.

I think ballpark 1000 cabinets, it would be pretty big project and pretty expensive.

raytaylor

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#2798358 20-Oct-2021 22:23

atomeara:

I think ballpark 1000 cabinets, it would be pretty big project and pretty expensive.

Such a shame chorus removed the sub-loop unbundling product.

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