Telecom Broadband drops in Chch? Then read this

Forums › New Zealand Broadband › Telecom Broadband drops in Chch? Then read this

1 | 2 | 3 | 4

165 posts

Master Geek
+1 received by user: 1

#55679 17-Dec-2006 13:32

No problem, I'm glad it worked OK for you too.

We do need to keep on at Xtra tech support so we get our 'full speeds' back at some point in the future but for now at least we're working at a reasonable speed.

I've been up and running without a single disconnection for 5 full days now.

nunz

1421 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 314
Inactive user

#55880 19-Dec-2006 16:11

Here is some more information to help check out your problems:

Some of Telexom / Xtra's problems that are causing droppages are to do with te way their routers / switches / nux / mux boxes are configured at the exchanges.

At a major router level you have virtual switching and separation of networks between several ISPs sharing the same physical equipment or lines. It is one of the downsides we face ie Ihug, xtra, telstra, slingshot etc all running their WANS on te same copper / fibre optic circuits.

To cut a long story short perform traceroutes from your boxes to see you are being routed properly. As an IT support for companies in Chch we are discovering that the routing our client's data is taking is not always as expected.

As an example, our office ISP is xtra. THis means when we do an SMTP connection for sending mail or a DNS lookup against Xtras servers we should not leave the Xtra domain. This ensures we are both a trusted user of the Xtra services (e.g. we can send mail via xtras SMTP ) and also our security as we know no one is standing between us and our trusted DNS servers sending us fake addresses for web sites we want to visit.

However a traceroute from our ADSL / LAN to xtras SMTP produces some weird results.
Our first stpe is out the door of our ADSL router. All good so far.
Our second step is to an ip address that looks like nn.nn.nn.nn.adsl.ihug.co.nz
Our third step is to a netgate address.
After that our traceroute never completes.

However if we traceroute to internal ihug, telstra or paradise servers our trace route completes.

The outcome of this for us is the following:
1 - We have no secure authentication to send mail from Xtras SMTP servers as they see us as an external client coming in from an external domain (non xtra) to send email . This means it regards us as potential spammers and our mail is treated accordingly.
2 - Our DNS resolution is flakey as we cannot always get to Xtras DNS servers as the routing path is fouled up
3 - We get regular time outs from international (mostly) and natioal servers as the reverse path to us is mucked up
4 - We have access to internal ihug / telstra servers that we shouldn't have

We have been working through the xtra helpdesk (usual scripted answers) and after 6 weeks called in our IBM contacts who are the sort of guys who watch the electrons go on and off the copper for fun. It turns out our NAS ports are misconfigured and we are sitting half in and half out of xtra / ihug and possibly telstras network.

In short do traceroute / tracert / tracepath between your machine and xtras servers to see what reslults you get back.

A further complication is that Xtras RDNS (reverse DNS) servers are not up to date and so there are many erroneous address name / ip settings slowing systems down. I am having better luck using international whois hosts to do lookups on NZ addresses than I am having using xtras DNS.

If you are having long term disconnection problems also feel free to hassle xtra to check the lines manually. Don't accept the , 'we have done a test and there are no problems..' fob off. After 12-18 months of that at our home address we finally got a technician who discovered three to five faults between our house and the switch. All of it caused by old copper, overloaded lines or recent work on the system trying to get kludges put in place to allow some face saving when Xtra tried to cope with adding more bandwidth to users without spending too much money on the infrastructure required to make it happen.

Some parts of town are also notoriously bad. Bryndwr is one. The lines do not have the capacity required for the growth in population for telephones and dial up internet access ... broadband is killing the system in that area and others. Woolston is another bad area.

galron

25 posts

Geek

#55915 20-Dec-2006 08:59

Nunz,

Thanks for an excellent and quite technical comment here. I followed most of it but I'm thinking that even if we document trace-routes that go where they shouldn't, will that information, if presented to Telecom, convince them to fix the probems? My guess is, given that you are part of an IT compnay that deals with this frequently and your findings have not, apparently, made Telecom sit up and take notice, that any findings I generate will also meet silence.

There was an article today in the Press here in Christchurch and via Stuff (http://www.stuff.co.nz/3905359a6009.html). It discusses how businesses (on-line dating services,in this case) are failing to ramp up to their potential because, as the article says, "New Zealand has the slowest internet connections in the world". And, "Expensive 2Mbit connections were delivering actual internet speeds equivalent to a 28k modem, and contacting customer support was 'like disappearing into a black hole.'"

I know that Telecom is contracting with external companies to deal with some of the technical work in their exchanges. I know because one of the technical representatives at Telecom I spoke with told me this. From the things you had to say about trace-routing, I'd have to say that I believe that Telecom is technically over their head with respect to the networks they are providing and/or they've been overwhelmed by the volume of customers they've gotten. Either way, they are providing Internet serivces to the New Zealand public in an incompetent manner. And, like large organizations everywhere, they will be slow to acknowledge this and if people in authority within Telecom feel threatened by such acknowledgements, they will resist them.

There is obviously nothing here that cannot be fixed with sufficient technical mojo. Many companies and nations around the world operate networks far bigger and more complex that the one Telecom is providing to New Zealanders. The real question is where is the roadblock here in New Zealand and what will it take to get it opened up? And it is important that it be made right because cheap and functional Internat access is one of those magic ingredients which aid in the economic development of all who use it and New Zealanders should not allow it to be denied to them.

nunz

1421 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 314
Inactive user

#55958 20-Dec-2006 17:23

galron: Nunz,

....but I'm thinking that even if we document trace-routes that go where they shouldn't, will that information, if presented to Telecom, convince them to fix the probems? My guess is, given that you are part of an IT compnay that deals with this frequently and your findings have not, apparently, made Telecom sit up and take notice, that any findings I generate will also meet silence.

The information is still important to Telecom and if not to them, to you as it gives you leverage to ask for refunds or to become part of the case for reform in the system. I am beating my head against this door (in fact the only reason I purchased a hands free phone was so I could work while listening to yet another dose of NZ greatest hists on Xtras hold system). when one case like this is fixed, if the information is avaialble it gives much more leverage to get the same sort of problem fixed again (and again and again) for other people.

Also posting in places like geek zone allows an aggregation of information that helps techies figure out whether problems are a one off or an overall pattern of mis function.

Re telcom handing off tech services to other companies ... yes they do .. as an example Downer does most of the maintenance on physical routers, switches, cabling and other equipment at the exchanges. However they are ownly used by Telecom as it is Telecoms way of trying to cut costs and squeeze as much out of their dollar as possible. As a result work is not commissioned to be done or the payment for work done is less than is required to get all the work done quickly enough. Downer and other techie providers to Telcom are absolutely flat out with no slack in the system for them to grow to meet the huge demand on them. All it takes is a small glitch (like last years lightening strikes taking out six muxs around the lincoln area) and the lines are down until the contractors are able to work their way around all the places affected.

The fact some people who got snowed on this year were without phone lines ( not to mention power) for so long shows the lack of resources we face in NZ. However, in NZs defence we are a small nation with a light population density which makes it difficult to get the funding required to make the systems more robust. On the other hand, Telecom making record profits and paying exorbetent .. hmm not exorbatent ... fiscally irresponsible and corrupt amounts to their top directors while screwing us for equipment doen't fly well either.

In Chch and the South Island we are very badly served. Last years cutting of two lines in Wellington showed the massive lack of redundancy we have in our internet systems (a system designed to withstand massive disruption caused by war or disaster) . It however was minor in impact to the South Island (who should have been able to route via Telstra or another provider using an off shore cable) compared to the times over the last couple of years when Chchs one and only major router died. That put thousands of businesses out of Internet contact for several days. In Wgtn and auckland they have redundancy but here in Chch Telcom / Xtra couldn't fork out 1-200k so we went without. It was an outage of the type that has occurred repeatedly over the last couple of years causing sectionsof the South Island , parts of Chch or combinationsof both to be Internetless for several hours to a few days.

Considering chch is the largest city in the south island (which holds between 25 - 33% of NZs population and a greater proportion of NZs revenue earning capacity) there should be both redundant servers / routers at all levels and a redundent cable bypassing Wellington or even better, heading straight off shore and out to Australia or other ports of connection. Maybe we should also consider redundent cabling direct to Auckland so if Wellington blows a fuse in its south bound route we can still talk by going north before heading south.

Hmm ... here endeth the rant ....

Other outage problems stuff...
Telcom and others like them (IHug, Paradise etc) are at each others throats for profits and quite frankly the unbundling is not going to help our lack of infrastructure investment in NZ. Costs will go down sure but profit will also go down and should (miracle of miracles) the companies start to become customer focused and realise we the client will stay ( and maybe even pay) for better service there will be much less money available for investment in infrastructure. I do not begrudge companies profit, don't get me wrong .. they who take the risks deserve the rewards, but without investment they are on a slippery slope to ruin. The unbundling and change to VOIP is only going to cause heart ache. If in the glut Xtra andTelcom were tight in their investing, imagine what it will be like in a tighter and fairer environment?

A lot of our current ISP outages and problems are caused by them touting for customers and taking on more than they can handle. Add to this the massive upsurge in spam and crud hitting the systems over the last 12 months and we are in the middle of a techno disaster. IHUg have gone down many times recently (micro or macro outages) and a lot of that can be attributed to mail and data volumes amongst other things. Xtras systems suck, again data usage killing systems via spam, VOIP and torrent downloads of music, games and videos. all the other ISPs are facing the same.

Talking with a major NZ hoster (but not an ISP) in Chch last week I learnt that in the last 6 months they have had to double their bandwidth purchases , gone from 1 to 5 spam filtering servers, spent over 50K in routers and switches as well as the other infrastructure upgrades and all without gaining a single cent of increase in revenue. Why? Spam. it is now estimated 95% of email is spam. That too is pushing our infrastructure and leading to outages in new and massive ways. I haven't even mentioned the virus load, crackers and other E-Scum prevelent in our netways nowadays. Watch your fiewall some time or even better, take your windows firewall down, count to 30 and then see how many infections you have just received.

We all hate the broadband drops and outages, slow connections etc ... however until we get some decent legislation, International agreement and start to become more sensible in the way we implement our technology then it is going to be a reality. Unbundling, while it may have bought some commercial honesty, is likely to bite us where we most like to repose comfortably....infront of a well connected gaming console or internet surfing machine.

galron

25 posts

Geek

#56232 23-Dec-2006 11:51

All,

Back on 12Dec06 in post #55323 of this thread, I posted a letter I'd written to Telecom about the problems I was haviing. Yesterday, I received a response by E-mail. They've given me two months of free "go large" now as a result of these issues. I've posted their letter, below, so you can see their response.

Since I've applied the 'fix' shown here, my connection has been solid - but at the cost of lower up and downstream speeds. Occassionally, I will revert my modem to the setting Telecom would prefer it be set to so I can see if they've fixed the problem or if the drops are still continuing. If you are just getting up to speed on this situation with Telecom and broadband problems, this document makes a good read: http://www.telecom-media.co.nz/resources/adsl-performance-report-250706.pdf

Cheers,

-------------------------------------

Dear Mr Gallagher,

Thank you for your email.

On behalf of Telecom I would firstly like to acknowledge the difficult experience you have had with your Broadband connection. This does not reflect the level of service that we strive to deliver to our customers.

Recently Telecom moved to maximum downstream broadband speeds. It was publicly acknowledged, prior to and at the time of this change, that a small proportion of customers may be negatively impacted by this.

We believe a combination of factors has caused the issue you are experiencing and that unfortunately no one solution will necessarily resolve it.

But we have made some changes to the equipment you connect to in the exchange and we will monitor your line for a period to see if this does in fact alleviate the issue.

We can appreciate your frustration particularly in waiting for our Advanced Broadband Team to contact you. But due to the nature and complexity of this issue, we have required more time than usual to work things through.

Please be aware that someone from the Advance Broadband Team will be in contact when we have some more definitive solutions.

As a gesture of goodwill we have applied a credit of 2 Months Xtra Go Large valued at $99.90.

Again thank you for your patience in this matter and please accept our apologies that we have not been able to do more to assist you to date. As stated above we are working things through as a matter of priority.

If you have any further queries regarding this issue, please do not hesitate to contact me.

Regards,

Michelle Elliott
Telecom

(Moderator edit (BG) - Added hyperlink to URL)

MarkC

7 posts

Wannabe Geek

#56613 30-Dec-2006 15:48

galron: Since I've applied the 'fix' shown here, my connection has been solid - but at the cost of lower up and downstream speeds.

When I read about your problem occuring every 5 minutes, and that it had been fixed by changing the modulation, I remembered this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G.DMT#Other_information

... There are 2 competing standards for DMT ADSL - ANSI & DMT; ANSI T1.413 is the North American standard G.992.1 (DMT) is the ITU (United Nations Telecom committee) standard. There is a difference in framing between the two, and selecting the wrong standard can cause frame alignment errors every 5 or so minutes...

Have Telecom accidentally set some DSLAMS or ports to use ANSI T1.413 I wonder?

Lego

Shop now for Lego sets and other gifts (affiliate link).

galron

25 posts

Geek

#56614 30-Dec-2006 15:54

Mark,

Nothing would surprise me. They hire their maintencne done by outside companies so there are many folks with their fingers in the technical pie.

Cheers,

cokemaster

Exited
4937 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 1089

Retired Mod

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#56618 30-Dec-2006 16:50

nunz:
The outcome of this for us is the following:
1 - We have no secure authentication to send mail from Xtras SMTP servers as they see us as an external client coming in from an external domain (non xtra) to send email . This means it regards us as potential spammers and our mail is treated accordingly.

Xtra offers secure email authetication in the form of secure remote email. Outside connections (read: connections coming in from other internet providers) to Xtras SMTP servers will always have problems sending mail unless you sign up for it.

You may also find problems completing a traceroute to smtp.xtra.co.nz because that server does not respond to ping. Other providers may have different policies in regard to responding to pings. You can telnet to it though.

Our second step is to an ip address that looks like nn.nn.nn.nn.adsl.ihug.co.nz

Are you sure your broadband connection is with Xtra? You should have either a something (usually jetstream).xtra.co.nz or a global gateway one if you are on go large. That may explain why you are having problems sending using xtras SMTP servers.

This is what I get when doing a trace route to smtp.xtra.co.nz

Traceroute has started ...

traceroute to smtp.xtra.co.nz (210.54.141.2), 64 hops max, 40 byte packets
1 * * *
2 222-152-xx-x.jetstream.xtra.co.nz (222.152.xx.x) 62.067 ms 62.477 ms 64.140 ms
3 210.55.205.123 (210.55.205.123) 61.379 ms 63.784 ms 64.131 ms
4 fid-dom.aksw7.global-gateway.net.nz (202.50.245.194) 74.833 ms 77.373 ms 74.592 ms
5 v282.aksw7.global-gateway.net.nz (202.50.245.193) 88.004 ms 75.492 ms 75.336 ms
6 g0-1-0-4.akcr8.global-gateway.net.nz (210.55.202.49) 71.176 ms 72.652 ms 105.543 ms
7 xtra-mta-dom.akcr8.global-gateway.net.nz (203.96.65.198) 73.316 ms 73.292 ms 76.167 ms
8 * * *
9 * * *
10 * * *
11 * * *
12 * * *
13 * * *
14 *

Anyway, we're going off topic here... this topic is to discuss Broadband disconnections within the Christchurch area. Lets keep it that way :)

webhosting

Loose lips may sink ships - Be smart - Don't post internal/commercially sensitive or confidential information!

nunz

1421 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 314
Inactive user

#56622 30-Dec-2006 21:18

cokemaster:
Anyway, we're going off topic here... this topic is to discuss Broadband disconnections within the Christchurch area. Lets keep it that way :)

Hi Cokemaster, I am not sure we are off topic ... the topic is diconnection from Xtra .. Yes? We have had disconnection problems with Xtra caused by incorrectly setup NAS Ports (part of the setup to route us at OSI layer one or two). This has has resulted in what look like disconnections, servers not responding (especially over seas ones) and inability to sent mail, trace route, do smtp and other basic services as an Xtra customer. ... I believe my post is on topic to the extent it is another cause of disconnection for Xtra. While I might have digressed slightly to respond to a comment from one of the other posters is that not the way a forum or chat tends to work? :-)

cokemaster:
nunz:
The outcome of this for us is the following:
1 - We have no secure authentication to send mail from Xtra's SMTP servers as they see us as an external client coming in from an external domain (non xtra) to send email . This means it regards us as potential spammers and our mail is treated accordingly.

Xtra offers secure email authetication in the form of secure remote email. Outside connections (read: connections coming in from other internet providers) to Xtras SMTP servers will always have problems sending mail unless you sign up for it.

Yep ... and to quote telecom ...

What does it cost?

The cost of subscribing to Secure Remote Email service is $2.50 (incl GST) per month.

and then we have to get it specially set up via (what would probably be) a very long phone call through their help desk. Why would I, an Xtra customer paying premium rates for their services, fork out another $30 per year for a service I don't need if they have done their job properly. and yes ... I am an Xtra customer. It has taken me four months to beat through their thick skulls their NAS ports are screwed and now their techies are arguing between themselves as to whether it is a proper set up to ave an Xtra customer dumped into the ihug domain ( as their gateway) as a normal course of action.

This screwed up setup is causing disconnections (to get me back on topic) or at least drop outs on my connection.

Cokemaster
You may also find problems completing a traceroute to smtp.xtra.co.nz because that server does not respond to ping. Other providers may have different policies in regard to responding to pings. You can telnet to it though.

Yep .. I am aware of that which is why we also use arping, telnet, tracepath and a range of other tools other than ping and traceroute. Traceroute however lets us know what the path was at the point of failure and the path is definitely out the ADSL and into ihug and then into netGate.

I have been working with computers for over 25 years now, had one of the first 150, 300 and 2400 baud modems in Chch, have been using networking on the internet or its equivalent (via fido) since the 80s and do IT for a living. I appreciate the reply and help but when I say the NAS ports are screwed up and that is causing disconnections I really do mean, their NAS ports are screwed up (not to mention RARP, ARP and DNS entries as well).

For more info on NAS ports ( an area I had to learn about) see here
http://www.cisco.com/univercd/cc/td/doc/product/software/ios123/123newft/123t/123t_14/ra5f.htm

Basically it takes your backbone traffic off the copper / fibre and splits it into virtual networks so it routes data from the same medium to the correct ISP / termination point. The Bishopdale areas one seems to be screwed. This results in bad connectivity and drop outs caused by in correct routing and inability of our system to get replys back consistently from the Internet. The traceroute is just the first diagnostic that pointed out our routing was screwed up and was a prbable cause of drop outs and disconnections.

:-)

(Moderator edit (BG) - Added hyperlink to URL)

cokemaster

Exited
4937 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 1089

Retired Mod

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#56629 30-Dec-2006 22:58

You can sign up for Secure remote email by going to the My Account page on the Xtra website and selecting the Xtra email subscription option. You'll need to set up your client for that (instructions can be found here). I have personally found that the Xtra Broadband support queue hasn't been too bad though I haven't had to call them for about 4 weeks.

I've sent you a private message regarding the other stuff. I am personally quite interested in the problem and would like to see the steps involved for your problem to get resolved.

Without causing offense, the reason why I suggested that this was slightly off topic was the intial postings within this thread were in regard to regular DSL dropping while your problem sounds quite unique and probably deserves to be posted in its own thread to ensure that related discussion is focused there.... I hope you'll agree with that point of view.

webhosting

Loose lips may sink ships - Be smart - Don't post internal/commercially sensitive or confidential information!

freitasm

BDFL - Memuneh
80655 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 41053

Administrator

ID Verified

Trusted

Geekzone

Lifetime subscriber

#56631 30-Dec-2006 23:56

cokemaster: You can sign up for Secure remote email by going to the My Account page on the Xtra website and selecting the Xtra email subscription option. You'll need to set up your client for that (instructions can be found here). I have personally found that the Xtra Broadband support queue hasn't been too bad though I haven't had to call them for about 4 weeks.

But why should he, if it's already known that he's a Xtra customer? If Telecom can't configure the router for that to work appropriately then the fee should be waive, certainly?

Referral links: Quic Broadband (free setup code: R587125ERQ6VE) | Samsung | AliExpress | Wise | Sharesies

Support Geekzone by subscribing (browse ads-free), or making a one-off or recurring donation through PressPatron.

Geekzone support

Support Geekzone with one-off or recurring donations Donate via PressPatron.

weblordpepe

460 posts

Ultimate Geek
Inactive user

#56639 31-Dec-2006 02:58

Secure remote email shouldnt be the answer because it doesn't really address the real problem. I tell you what nunz - that cisco link was excellent. What a gold-mine of information.

cokemaster

Exited
4937 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 1089

Retired Mod

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#56644 31-Dec-2006 09:13

freitasm:
But why should he, if it's already known that he's a Xtra customer? If Telecom can't configure the router for that to work appropriately then the fee should be waive, certainly?

Because it is a temporary work around in the meantime... I've sent him a PM with a few hints to try when or if he calls the helpdesk.

webhosting

Loose lips may sink ships - Be smart - Don't post internal/commercially sensitive or confidential information!

freitasm

BDFL - Memuneh
80655 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 41053

Administrator

ID Verified

Trusted

Geekzone

Lifetime subscriber

#56648 31-Dec-2006 10:03

Yes, I understand it's a workaround. But why make the customer pay for a workaround if the basic service is part of his contract but it's not accessible?

It's the same as getting my car under warranty to an authorised dealer, who will put a bypass somewhere and charge for it, while waiting for the manufacturer to send the proper part for replacement. Not acceptable is it?

I think the fee should be waived, and enrollment should be done by the CSR, pending validation of fault or fixing it. Why put the cost onus on the consumer?

If it's really not a Telecom or Xtra fault then the usage of this service could be charged afterwards.

Referral links: Quic Broadband (free setup code: R587125ERQ6VE) | Samsung | AliExpress | Wise | Sharesies

Support Geekzone by subscribing (browse ads-free), or making a one-off or recurring donation through PressPatron.

nunz

1421 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 314
Inactive user

#56673 31-Dec-2006 20:15

Hi all,

Thanks for the suggestions. I have re-routed my mail via Digiweb and am authenticating through their servers to get my mail.

CokeMaster - Cheers for the reply ... agreed it is a unique sort of issue ... will be interested myself to see what the resolution turns out to be. Am chasing it again later this week when am back in the office.

Will read message you sent through and post details FYI regarding how we get on.

We have a client in Woolston who is having drop outs (5-15% drop out of signals if you do a ping test / trace route test) and also some in Bryndwr with similar problems .. although we have found breaks in the line between the house and the exchange. Will keep posting as we sort those problems out too.

galron:

Since I've applied the 'fix' shown here, my connection has been solid - but at the cost of lower up and downstream speeds.

When I read about your problem occuring every 5 minutes, and that it had been fixed by changing the modulation, I remembered this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G.DMT#Other_information
... There are 2 competing standards for DMT ADSL - ANSI & DMT; ANSI T1.413 is the North American standard G.992.1 (DMT) is the ITU (United Nations Telecom committee) standard. There is a difference in framing between the two, and selecting the wrong standard can cause frame alignment errors every 5 or so minutes...

Have Telecom accidentally set some DSLAMS or ports to use ANSI T1.413 I wonder?

Is there a way to ascertain what ADSL standard is being applied? e.g. can I do a test from a client site to determine the ADSL settings at the server / gateway end?

Another side thought .. it might be worth getting a map set up online to show where certain problem types are in Chch (or other centres) as a diagnostic test. Especially as people experience drop outs, disconnections or pure lack of speed etc. It might help pinpoint badly configured exchanges etc.

1 | 2 | 3 | 4